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There is a string comparison case for flower vs BT in one dayers. True. But in tests it’s not even same ballpark.
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Andy Flower: ICC Hall Of Fame Inductee
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TapsC2 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm
Now I know people will talk about the quality of the opposition but cricinfo breaks it down nicely these days.
Quality and context are ultimately important. Flower averaged 35 in an era where 35 was a world class average. Good batsmen averaged 30. We're now in an era where the best batters average 60 or close to it (Kohli, Babar), and world class batters average 50 or close to that (Smith, Williamson, Root). Even Shai Hope averages well over 50, although I would put him in the "very good" class and not quite world class.
Its why I always considered Hamilton an ordinary batsman. He averaged around 25 against strong opposition throughout his career. Up until a few years ago Williams was ordinary because he only scored runs when Zimbabwe had already lost and the opposition where merely going through the motions. He now scores runs in all situations meaning he's matured his game and jumped to the next level.
Bangladesh cricket fanatic, observer of all others.
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Kriterion_BD wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:24 pm
TapsC2 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:34 pm
Now I know people will talk about the quality of the opposition but cricinfo breaks it down nicely these days.
Quality and context are ultimately important. Flower averaged 35 in an era where 35 was a world class average. Good batsmen averaged 30. We're now in an era where the best batters average 60 or close to it (Kohli, Babar), and world class batters average 50 or close to that (Smith, Williamson, Root). Even Shai Hope averages well over 50, although I would put him in the "very good" class and not quite world class.
Its why I always considered Hamilton an ordinary batsman. He averaged around 25 against strong opposition throughout his career. Up until a few years ago Williams was ordinary because he only scored runs when Zimbabwe had already lost and the opposition where merely going through the motions. He now scores runs in all situations meaning he's matured his game and jumped to the next level.
Fair point. So when exactly did 35 become ordinary because Hami and BT started playing for Zim 17 years ago. Their numbers are in between generations I guess because I think all the guys you mentioned with high averages started playing in the 2010s.
Also if those were world class stats then why did Andy Flower only get 4 ODI centuries? This is not an attack on Flower, just a critical analysis.
Also Flower in the test arena had his glory moment in the India series, what about in ODIs? Let's not forget the way BT played in the 2015 World Cup. I dont think I have seen individual performances that good for Zim in limited overs cricket. 2 big centuries
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TapsC2 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:54 am
Also if those were world class stats then why did Andy Flower only get 4 ODI centuries? This is not an attack on Flower, just a critical analysis.
Also Flower in the test arena had his glory moment in the India series, what about in ODIs? Let's not forget the way BT played in the 2015 World Cup. I dont think I have seen individual performances that good for Zim in limited overs cricket. 2 big centuries
Flower batted at 5 mostly in ODIs, didn't he? Its hard to really rack up a lot of ODI centuries unless you bat in the top 4.
And you're right about the generations thing. I would say the batting benchmarks changed in ODIs right around the 2015 world cup. Almost overnight, a 35 average became somewhat ordinary.
Fair point. So when exactly did 35 become ordinary because Hami and BT started playing for Zim 17 years ago. Their numbers are in between generations I guess because I think all the guys you mentioned with high averages started playing in the 2010s.
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... pe=batting
BT actually has a very solid average of 45. Just short of world class and into the very good category ie what a 35 average was in the 2000s. Williams is next with an average of 38, which I suspect is well into the 40s in the last 2-3 years.
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ShareOne moment that sticks in my mind regarding Andy Flower happened in 97, Andy had just equalled thew world record for most consecutive fifties in Test Cricket and was at the crease looking good for another fifty, if not hundred. the game was at HSC and I had tuned in on the radio and when I heard his score I dropped what I was doing and drove across to town so I could witness him break the record. I think he was on about 30 or so and lots of fans were dashing to HSC to celebrate the moment. I approached from 2nd Street and found a parking on Tongogara Ave. AS I got out the car, I was surprised to see Andy, in jogging kit running down the road. He didn't even see me and had this thousand yard stare and was running hard. Of course I got to the ground to discover he had been run out by his batting partner Alistair Campbell!! Typical Andy, kept his frustration and anger to himself, put on his trying shoes and went running.
Another moment that stick in my memory was watching him bat at HSC facing Shoaib Ahktar . Shoal was at his absolute prime, a few weeks later in Cape Town he broke the 160km/h mark with a delivery to Nick Knight. Anyway, there was no speed gun at HSC that day, but Shoaib was bowling faster than anything I've ever seen. He had the misfortune to be fielding at fine leg in front of Castle Corner and all the boozers were really giving him a hard time. Eventually he cracked and threw his water bottle into the crowd. This of course delighted Castle Corner, but was not good news for Andy who had to face an engaged Ahktar. The over that followed was truly terrifying, the keeper standing 30 yards back and catching everything above his head. One of these deliveries reared up and hit Andy on the arm. Then there was an exchange between bowler and batsman. Afterwards, I met Andy at a social event and asked him what had gone down, the exchange went as follows:--
Shoal - "Does that hurt? Do you want me to rub it for you?"
Andy - "Just go back to your mark. Stop worrying so much about your hair and put your back into the next ball."
Of course the next ball was an absolute thunderbolt, and of course it was a bouncer aimed straight at the head.
Andy swayed out the way and acted cool as can be, but admitted it was adrenalin pumping stuff.
Wasim Akram said Andy was the most difficult batsman he bowled to -- when asked why, Wasim said it was because he totally neutralized the bouncer, he would just sway out the way, never ducked and never looked hurried. Wasim said it was completely disheartening when he realized he couldn't intimidate Andy at all.
The interesting thing is that Andy had started cross training and had a kick boxer trainer. He felt the kick boxing helped with reaction time and avoiding bouncers.
Incredible batsman! Dedicated, focused, incredibly fit and tough as nails. Was ranked Worlds No 1 batsman at a time when he doing the wicketkeeping and usually batting with the tail. Fully deserves the hall of fame induction.
Another moment that stick in my memory was watching him bat at HSC facing Shoaib Ahktar . Shoal was at his absolute prime, a few weeks later in Cape Town he broke the 160km/h mark with a delivery to Nick Knight. Anyway, there was no speed gun at HSC that day, but Shoaib was bowling faster than anything I've ever seen. He had the misfortune to be fielding at fine leg in front of Castle Corner and all the boozers were really giving him a hard time. Eventually he cracked and threw his water bottle into the crowd. This of course delighted Castle Corner, but was not good news for Andy who had to face an engaged Ahktar. The over that followed was truly terrifying, the keeper standing 30 yards back and catching everything above his head. One of these deliveries reared up and hit Andy on the arm. Then there was an exchange between bowler and batsman. Afterwards, I met Andy at a social event and asked him what had gone down, the exchange went as follows:--
Shoal - "Does that hurt? Do you want me to rub it for you?"
Andy - "Just go back to your mark. Stop worrying so much about your hair and put your back into the next ball."
Of course the next ball was an absolute thunderbolt, and of course it was a bouncer aimed straight at the head.
Andy swayed out the way and acted cool as can be, but admitted it was adrenalin pumping stuff.
Wasim Akram said Andy was the most difficult batsman he bowled to -- when asked why, Wasim said it was because he totally neutralized the bouncer, he would just sway out the way, never ducked and never looked hurried. Wasim said it was completely disheartening when he realized he couldn't intimidate Andy at all.
The interesting thing is that Andy had started cross training and had a kick boxer trainer. He felt the kick boxing helped with reaction time and avoiding bouncers.
Incredible batsman! Dedicated, focused, incredibly fit and tough as nails. Was ranked Worlds No 1 batsman at a time when he doing the wicketkeeping and usually batting with the tail. Fully deserves the hall of fame induction.
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Brilliant story.
They just don't make batsman like that in Zimbabwe anymore. He truly was as tough as they come
They just don't make batsman like that in Zimbabwe anymore. He truly was as tough as they come
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PieChucker wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:10 pm
One moment that sticks in my mind regarding Andy Flower happened in 97, Andy had just equalled thew world record for most consecutive fifties in Test Cricket and was at the crease looking good for another fifty, if not hundred. the game was at HSC and I had tuned in on the radio and when I heard his score I dropped what I was doing and drove across to town so I could witness him break the record. I think he was on about 30 or so and lots of fans were dashing to HSC to celebrate the moment. I approached from 2nd Street and found a parking on Tongogara Ave. AS I got out the car, I was surprised to see Andy, in jogging kit running down the road. He didn't even see me and had this thousand yard stare and was running hard. Of course I got to the ground to discover he had been run out by his batting partner Alistair Campbell!! Typical Andy, kept his frustration and anger to himself, put on his trying shoes and went running.
Another moment that stick in my memory was watching him bat at HSC facing Shoaib Ahktar . Shoal was at his absolute prime, a few weeks later in Cape Town he broke the 160km/h mark with a delivery to Nick Knight. Anyway, there was no speed gun at HSC that day, but Shoaib was bowling faster than anything I've ever seen. He had the misfortune to be fielding at fine leg in front of Castle Corner and all the boozers were really giving him a hard time. Eventually he cracked and threw his water bottle into the crowd. This of course delighted Castle Corner, but was not good news for Andy who had to face an engaged Ahktar. The over that followed was truly terrifying, the keeper standing 30 yards back and catching everything above his head. One of these deliveries reared up and hit Andy on the arm. Then there was an exchange between bowler and batsman. Afterwards, I met Andy at a social event and asked him what had gone down, the exchange went as follows:--
Shoal - "Does that hurt? Do you want me to rub it for you?"
Andy - "Just go back to your mark. Stop worrying so much about your hair and put your back into the next ball."
Of course the next ball was an absolute thunderbolt, and of course it was a bouncer aimed straight at the head.
Andy swayed out the way and acted cool as can be, but admitted it was adrenalin pumping stuff.
Wasim Akram said Andy was the most difficult batsman he bowled to -- when asked why, Wasim said it was because he totally neutralized the bouncer, he would just sway out the way, never ducked and never looked hurried. Wasim said it was completely disheartening when he realized he couldn't intimidate Andy at all.
The interesting thing is that Andy had started cross training and had a kick boxer trainer. He felt the kick boxing helped with reaction time and avoiding bouncers.
Incredible batsman! Dedicated, focused, incredibly fit and tough as nails. Was ranked Worlds No 1 batsman at a time when he doing the wicketkeeping and usually batting with the tail. Fully deserves the hall of fame induction.
Lovely man!
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sloandog wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:33 pm
Brilliant story.
They just don't make batsman like that in Zimbabwe anymore. He truly was as tough as they come
+1
The Third Innings
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No less than Andy deserved. He was truly a world class player playing for a developing side, and he still held his own against the best.
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slcricfan1 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:28 am
tgk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:33 pm
PieChucker wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:18 am
Probably his greatest game
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/sou ... -scorecard
SA scored 600 - Andy kept throughout and there were no byes.
Had a 16.5 over break and then scored 142 runs.
Zim followed on and after 12 overs Andy was back at the crease - scored 199 not out.
Skill, fitness, concentration, mental toughness.
Insane. I was about minus 3 years old during that game but even the scorecard sends shivers down your spine. I wish I could've seen him play, what a legend.
nice to see another teen lol
😂 😂
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