Seeing as our spin attack is basically crap on a non spinning wicket. (As in non threatening and non containing) can we not pick tiripano chivanga blessing and ngarava.
Go for broke. A test is there to be won
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2nd Test | Zimbabwe V/s Pakistan | Harare
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We used to get flogged back in the 90s as well. If Andy, Grant and Alistair failed you still had mediocre guys in the team like Viljoen, Rennie, Wishart, Ferreira, Gripper etc who were only mid 20 test averages. It’s as though everyone just remembers the 99 World Cup and expects Zim to be that good all the time. Considering the state of the country and number of cricket players in Zim, I think they still punch above their weight.
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Terryalderman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
We used to get flogged back in the 90s as well. If Andy, Grant and Alistair failed you still had mediocre guys in the team like Viljoen, Rennie, Wishart, Ferreira, Gripper etc who were only mid 20 test averages. It’s as though everyone just remembers the 99 World Cup and expects Zim to be that good all the time. Considering the state of the country and number of cricket players in Zim, I think they still punch above their weight.
irony is that the Zim team of that era is still better than this team, things should have evolved in Zim but unfortunatly it has regressed. All those medocre players were better fighter compare to current Zim team.
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farhanhussan wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:48 am
Terryalderman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
We used to get flogged back in the 90s as well. If Andy, Grant and Alistair failed you still had mediocre guys in the team like Viljoen, Rennie, Wishart, Ferreira, Gripper etc who were only mid 20 test averages. It’s as though everyone just remembers the 99 World Cup and expects Zim to be that good all the time. Considering the state of the country and number of cricket players in Zim, I think they still punch above their weight.
irony is that the Zim team of that era is still better than this team, things should have evolved in Zim but unfortunatly it has regressed. All those medocre players were better fighter compare to current Zim team.
Ya those men mentioned had a grit which we don't seem to have at the moment. Give the lads time though, they'll come good
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secretzimbo wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:03 am
The U19s coming up are the best for a decade or so and people involved in the next batch are just as confident in them too.
The only player we've really seen enough of to make any sort of call is Wes, and its still quite early in his career. Granted, some players develop their game very late in their careers (eg Sean Williams who was a mediocre player until about 5 years ago). But I think the bar set by Taylor/Williams/Ervine/Raza is so high, I personally can't see Wesley/Shumba/Myers/Bawa (the new Big 4) matching that level of performance. Williams averages 42 in Tests.
The issue with the current Big 4 has been that they lack synergy...they never score runs together in the same innings. One guy will score a hundred, but the other 3 will combine for 50 runs or less.
The new Big 4 are not only going to have to match the 35+ averages that the current group has in both formats of the game, but they will also have to find a way to perform consistently.
A batting lineup only needs 3-4 class players to be competitive...but they have to be consistent and work well as a unit.
Bangladesh cricket fanatic, observer of all others.
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secretzimbo wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:03 am
But in 6 months we’ve seen ZC put on (short) domestic comps in all three formats, late into the autumn, at great cost despite not being required to due to covid. Would Makoni & Mukuhlani have done that a year or two back if they had the excuse?
We’ve seen overseas zimbos invited en mass to return for the Logan cup. Only a couple came over but it’s a start and it’s a good idea.
We’ve seen the 5th franchise reintroduced - again at cost - to ensure there are chances for the U19’s
We’ve seen schools having their facilities fixed for the first time in several years and speaking to some teachers (I used to be one!), Hammy is getting the praise for personally driving it.
There has been governance changes - non cricketing people (some of them who have been there for years) have been removed from some of the regional boards and replaced with people who finally appear to give a f**k.
ZC have put in place formal communication channels with schools and clubs. A professionalisation of things.
The NPL again at great cost and with little revenue - it’s a good cricketing idea and hopefully we see it grow. Club cricket was pretty much the best thing about Zim cricket 20+ years ago.
All of these things when jumbled like this and phrased in a certain manner does make it seem as if things are definitely being done and moving forward. It's refreshing in a way. You'll have to excuse my skepticism as I've seen this sort of happen quite often in the past only for issues to still persists or get worse.
One of the reasons for that is that even with all this good work you describe, I can't help but feel a level of mismanagement still occurs, and to a degree which is detrimental to ZC as a team. The example are for me Chamu and Wellington in the sides. The handling of the likes of Murray. The rhetoric that players have to pick ZC or their livelihoods. The response to the Streak situation by ZC. The lack of transparency and openness on all issues, structures, and governance systems.
To me, results on the field are a major marker of the governance and leadership, and unfortunately I can't speak too highly of it for now.
Terryalderman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
We used to get flogged back in the 90s as well. If Andy, Grant and Alistair failed you still had mediocre guys in the team like Viljoen, Rennie, Wishart, Ferreira, Gripper etc who were only mid 20 test averages. It’s as though everyone just remembers the 99 World Cup and expects Zim to be that good all the time. Considering the state of the country and number of cricket players in Zim, I think they still punch above their weight.
As mentioned before, a big factor with those players was their grit and determination. They put in the hard yards in club cricket and made efforts to arrange that and keep it running. They didn't rely on ZC at the time to organise games or programmes. They trained hard and worked harder. They had a willingness to learn and be better. So i do remember that we used to get beaten, but you could always see progress, which resulted in us winning more matches as we developed.
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The loss of Murray is disappointing isn't it? ZC got outbid by an accounting firm 😂 😂
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Zimco wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 12:39 am
The loss of Murray is disappointing isn't it? ZC got outbid by an accounting firm 😂 😂
This will always be a weird one to me. It wouldn’t have taken Murray one month in Zim to walk into this team. Instead he has an accounting job. The PJ situation is very understandable but this one can’t be blamed on ZC alone in my eyes. You have to want it. If Evans and Chivanga had to play the domestic competition then Murray had to as well. It only makes sense.
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TapsC2 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 4:29 am
This will always be a weird one to me. It wouldn’t have taken Murray one month in Zim to walk into this team. Instead he has an accounting job. The PJ situation is very understandable but this one can’t be blamed on ZC alone in my eyes. You have to want it. If Evans and Chivanga had to play the domestic competition then Murray had to as well. It only makes sense.
Warner made his international debut without any First Class cricket. I'm not saying Murray should walk in to the side, but there should not be a blanket rule. This just removes so many options and possibilities. Murray is one of those where the rules are a bit different, or at least should be.
When you are looking for gold, all of a sudden you get a diamond, what do you do? still keep looking for gold or grab that diamond and place it in your treasure?
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zimbos_05 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:55 am
TapsC2 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 4:29 am
This will always be a weird one to me. It wouldn’t have taken Murray one month in Zim to walk into this team. Instead he has an accounting job. The PJ situation is very understandable but this one can’t be blamed on ZC alone in my eyes. You have to want it. If Evans and Chivanga had to play the domestic competition then Murray had to as well. It only makes sense.
Warner made his international debut without any First Class cricket. I'm not saying Murray should walk in to the side, but there should not be a blanket rule. This just removes so many options and possibilities. Murray is one of those where the rules are a bit different, or at least should be.
When you are looking for gold, all of a sudden you get a diamond, what do you do? still keep looking for gold or grab that diamond and place it in your treasure?
I get you. Maybe for Muyeye yes but for me Murray is no different from Malcolm Lake. Talent is there but is it walk straight into the team talent based on Uni cricket?
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zimbos_05 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:55 am
TapsC2 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 4:29 am
This will always be a weird one to me. It wouldn’t have taken Murray one month in Zim to walk into this team. Instead he has an accounting job. The PJ situation is very understandable but this one can’t be blamed on ZC alone in my eyes. You have to want it. If Evans and Chivanga had to play the domestic competition then Murray had to as well. It only makes sense.
Warner made his international debut without any First Class cricket. I'm not saying Murray should walk in to the side, but there should not be a blanket rule. This just removes so many options and possibilities. Murray is one of those where the rules are a bit different, or at least should be.
When you are looking for gold, all of a sudden you get a diamond, what do you do? still keep looking for gold or grab that diamond and place it in your treasure?
It’s a shame but I think it’s the right thing to do. ZC are insisting even the big 4 play domestic cricket when available now, or they won’t get picked either.
I can see why australia can do just elevate someone straight into the national team, but as discussed our Logan Cup is weak and of a low standard so I understand ZC trying to force everyone to play it to get the standards up. It’s the only way to ensure it is of any higher standard than club or school cricket tbh.
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secretzimbo wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 9:12 am
It’s a shame but I think it’s the right thing to do. ZC are insisting even the big 4 play domestic cricket when available now, or they won’t get picked either.
I can see why australia can do just elevate someone straight into the national team, but as discussed our Logan Cup is weak and of a low standard so I understand ZC trying to force everyone to play it to get the standards up. It’s the only way to ensure it is of any higher standard than club or school cricket tbh.
That's all well and good that you want to get the domestic scene up, but they have to be reasonable and practical. Forcing people to play in the domestic scene is forcing them to make a living in the current Zim economy. As we know, that's not great.
Rules need to be flexible. He wants to earn a degree, so work with him to do so, but don't just discard actual talent for the sake of ego. By taking the stance, you are weakening your own national team simply to prove a point.
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If we are being honest Murray is actually a serious issue. The future team only balances with him there. Even the current test team, Regis would open. Does anyone actually have the real story about what happened and what is happening?
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zimbos_05 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 9:49 am
secretzimbo wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 9:12 am
It’s a shame but I think it’s the right thing to do. ZC are insisting even the big 4 play domestic cricket when available now, or they won’t get picked either.
I can see why australia can do just elevate someone straight into the national team, but as discussed our Logan Cup is weak and of a low standard so I understand ZC trying to force everyone to play it to get the standards up. It’s the only way to ensure it is of any higher standard than club or school cricket tbh.
That's all well and good that you want to get the domestic scene up, but they have to be reasonable and practical. Forcing people to play in the domestic scene is forcing them to make a living in the current Zim economy. As we know, that's not great.
Rules need to be flexible. He wants to earn a degree, so work with him to do so, but don't just discard actual talent for the sake of ego. By taking the stance, you are weakening your own national team simply to prove a point.
Oh I agree. We were discussing recently about supporting kids through their uni studies. I hear Dion Myers (massive talent. There are people on the scene who rate him higher than Wes or Murray or anyone) is off to uni later this year so we could end up in the same situation with him.
But to be fair, he's finished his degree now. He's working in London. Does he want to be a professional cricketer or not? He can't be a full time accountants and play international cricket. I mean, thats just not possible - in any full member system, anywhere in the world. Of course I don't blame him though - taking the accountancy job overseas is the sensible option, the financial option, the safe option. Most would do the same and its absolutely not his fault, at all. But he can't do both obviously.
Has he even played any club cricket or anything in the past 12 months or so? As far as we know on this forum, he could well have not picked up a cricket bat in over a year. Even before that, how high quality was the cricket he was playing? Theres a high chance he's lost a lot of ability and expecting someone to just waltz into the international team when we have no idea about his current level is a bit ridiculous.
I think he has moved on (at least for now) and I think we need to.
And hope we don't make the same mistake with Myers.
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I see alot of prospect in Zimbabwe younstars in shorter format. Marumani is talented kid, if he develops a bit of match awareness he can be that aggresor Zim needs at the top. Marumani should open both in Odis & T20s. Wesley Madhevere has an excellent future to be among the best allrounders. Objective should be, both this young players should get more balls to face as both are quite good aggresor and timer of the ball. Kamhukunkamwe should continue to feature in Zim playing XI he has the game awareness developing in him.
Musakanda is finished, he deserved backing when he was dropped, when he made debut under Streak, he looked to be the next big think and a gun fielder, but getting dropped hurt his confidence.
Burl,Jongwe & Tiripano should bat higher up in the order in shorter formats for their respective franchise to learn the art of finishing games all of them have the ability to hit the bowl hard.Richard Ngarava should develop the art of bringing the bowl into the right handers, once he learn that art, he will win matches for Zim
Taylor, Williams, Ervine, Raza, Jarvis....
now it looks blink that this 5 could again feature in Zim Playing XI again, one or the other will always get missed out due to injury, fitness lacks in these 5 star players and at present Zim had no replacement for these players so they will struggle in longest format as experience matters in longest format.
Raw truth is Zim has no future in test cricket for next 5 - 6 years unless ICC comes with new plan but they have huge chance & materials to build up and become a competative side in shorter format and become giant killers. Zim now requires a good coaching unit, someone like Whatmore who is best in coaching weak teams.
Musakanda is finished, he deserved backing when he was dropped, when he made debut under Streak, he looked to be the next big think and a gun fielder, but getting dropped hurt his confidence.
Burl,Jongwe & Tiripano should bat higher up in the order in shorter formats for their respective franchise to learn the art of finishing games all of them have the ability to hit the bowl hard.Richard Ngarava should develop the art of bringing the bowl into the right handers, once he learn that art, he will win matches for Zim
Taylor, Williams, Ervine, Raza, Jarvis....
now it looks blink that this 5 could again feature in Zim Playing XI again, one or the other will always get missed out due to injury, fitness lacks in these 5 star players and at present Zim had no replacement for these players so they will struggle in longest format as experience matters in longest format.
Raw truth is Zim has no future in test cricket for next 5 - 6 years unless ICC comes with new plan but they have huge chance & materials to build up and become a competative side in shorter format and become giant killers. Zim now requires a good coaching unit, someone like Whatmore who is best in coaching weak teams.
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Rajkumar Sharma wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 12:08 pm
I see alot of prospect in Zimbabwe younstars in shorter format. Marumani is talented kid, if he develops a bit of match awareness he can be that aggresor Zim needs at the top. Marumani should open both in Odis & T20s. Wesley Madhevere has an excellent future to be among the best allrounders. Objective should be, both this young players should get more balls to face as both are quite good aggresor and timer of the ball. Kamhukunkamwe should continue to feature in Zim playing XI he has the game awareness developing in him.
K-long was so frustrating and disappointing in the last couple of series. I'm finding it hard to forgive him. I'm not sure he's the future really.
Marumani is epic!!! People don't talk about him enough and he's often not mentioned when people are talking about Wes/Shumba/Myers/Bawa. I don't think he's as naturally gifted as those four, but it's his attitude that makes him gun. I watched him play school cricket and he's always been the same - completely unfazed at the crease, plays with real swagger and confidence. He doesn't give a f**k and just goes and plays explosively. We saw it in the Pak T20 series. I just love his attitude when he is out in the middle. He'll be an excellent limited overs player for sure. We'll have to see as he grows up if he can adapt, develop, and carve out a red ball career too as he matures.
Musakanda is finished, he deserved backing when he was dropped, when he made debut under Streak, he looked to be the next big think and a gun fielder, but getting dropped hurt his confidence.
I still like Tari because I think technically he is a beautiful player. He has every shot in his locker and in theory he should be great. His lack of development is pretty much the main number 1 reason I hate the coaches. I watch him and I just feel his problem is mental. He often makes poor decisions. He has no idea about shot selection. He can play every shot in the book beautifully, but he tries the wrong thing too often and I don't think he knows how to build an innings or play the situation at all. He has so much talent but he needs a good coach and mentor. Rajput & Matsi seem to have contributed absolutely 0 to Tari's ability and it's really disappointing. Time is still on his side and I hope he can still make it. Like I say, the talent has always been there ever since school and U19 cricket.
Raw truth is Zim has no future in test cricket for next 5 - 6 years unless ICC comes with new plan but they have huge chance & materials to build up and become a competative side in shorter format and become giant killers. Zim now requires a good coaching unit, someone like Whatmore who is best in coaching weak teams.
Agreed on needing new coaches, 100%. Although Whatmore was Zim coach before and ended up getting himself sacked. It didn't go well....
But in terms of Test Vs Limited Overs.......
I think I've mentioned it before but it's a culture problem and its not easy to change overnight. Go and ask school kids in Zim if they want to play a T20I or a Test and probably almost all will still say tests. Go and ask school kids in most full members and all associate members and nowadays a massive amount of those kids will probably say T20. Zim cricket is very traditional and conservative...even amongst the younger generation. Red ball is very much still the pinnacle here and thats what the majority still aim for and value I feel. I guess thats changed in the sub continent in the past ten years but it hasn't here yet.
Everyone in ZC, all of the local media, most of the players and indeed most of the fans want to watch us playing Test cricket rather than other formats.
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secretzimbo wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 10:10 am
Oh I agree. We were discussing recently about supporting kids through their uni studies. I hear Dion Myers (massive talent. There are people on the scene who rate him higher than Wes or Murray or anyone) is off to uni later this year so we could end up in the same situation with him.
But to be fair, he's finished his degree now. He's working in London. Does he want to be a professional cricketer or not? He can't be a full time accountants and play international cricket. I mean, thats just not possible - in any full member system, anywhere in the world. Of course I don't blame him though - taking the accountancy job overseas is the sensible option, the financial option, the safe option. Most would do the same and its absolutely not his fault, at all. But he can't do both obviously.
Has he even played any club cricket or anything in the past 12 months or so? As far as we know on this forum, he could well have not picked up a cricket bat in over a year. Even before that, how high quality was the cricket he was playing? Theres a high chance he's lost a lot of ability and expecting someone to just waltz into the international team when we have no idea about his current level is a bit ridiculous.
I think he has moved on (at least for now) and I think we need to.
And hope we don't make the same mistake with Myers.
The problem with Murray is that nothing has been said directly from him or anyone close to him who knows the actual story. As a result, everything around his story is speculation and until there is a clear picture, there will be people on both sides arguing for either side. Unfortunately, ZC have been open about their "domestic or nothing" or even their "commit to us or be gone" policy.
It seems Murray is lost to us, which is a massive shame considering his talent and potential. We have to hope that ZC realise they can't do this to every player. Not all players have the option to go overseas so will stay behind and play for ZC, but many others will have options and ZC will lose them.
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For last 5/6 years, plan of a Zim U19 talent has been to perform in school cricket, get selected for U19s, perform in U19 World Cup, get an offer from club cricket in UK or AUS and end career with Zimbabwe.
ZC has no measure to stop this plan, they needs to rectify it and come with terms either play for Zim in future or not select him for national duty.Only those should be selected who will play for Zim, they should make a permanent law to stop this migration.
ZC has no measure to stop this plan, they needs to rectify it and come with terms either play for Zim in future or not select him for national duty.Only those should be selected who will play for Zim, they should make a permanent law to stop this migration.
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Rajkumar Sharma wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:39 am
For last 5/6 years, plan of a Zim U19 talent has been to perform in school cricket, get selected for U19s, perform in U19 World Cup, get an offer from club cricket in UK or AUS and end career with Zimbabwe.
ZC has no measure to stop this plan, they needs to rectify it and come with terms either play for Zim in future or not select him for national duty.Only those should be selected who will play for Zim, they should make a permanent law to stop this migration.
It is the financial situation in the country to blame in general. No one sticks around if there are significantly better opportunities elsewhere, cricketing or otherwise. So, if this rule is enacted, we won't have a decent U19 team to take the field in the first place.
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CrimsonAvenger wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 4:27 am
Rajkumar Sharma wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:39 am
For last 5/6 years, plan of a Zim U19 talent has been to perform in school cricket, get selected for U19s, perform in U19 World Cup, get an offer from club cricket in UK or AUS and end career with Zimbabwe.
ZC has no measure to stop this plan, they needs to rectify it and come with terms either play for Zim in future or not select him for national duty.Only those should be selected who will play for Zim, they should make a permanent law to stop this migration.
It is the financial situation in the country to blame in general. No one sticks around if there are significantly better opportunities elsewhere, cricketing or otherwise. So, if this rule is enacted, we won't have a decent U19 team to take the field in the first place.
Will definately select guys who will think future with Zim then those who will use their Zim under 19 tags for playing in other nations, no matter what the results comes off win / loss should'nt matter, this migration system needs a fullstop. Once the law is enforced, confitions will improve, ZC is making a career for those UK, AUS bounds under 19s in one side by selecting them in U19 World Cup and hurting themselves in other side as they are not getting their service when ZC needs them most, at the end of the day their is no profit for ZC.
Fans will continue to talk about Ives, Evans, Keefe, Schadendorf, Roche, Matigimu, Muyeye but these players have no interest for Zim, they will just use Zim under 19 tag for their personal career making.
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