I found it really stupid that Zimbabwe hired a coach who had made the great Pakistan lose a Test match to Zimbabwe.
Before Dave Whatmore was appointed he watched Zimbabwe play, adding to the number of times he had led Pakistan against the same players. Still when he took over, it was clear that he had absolutely no clue.
Reports of him calling up several of the semi-retired players proved true. Coventry was a disaster. Graeme Cremer too for the most part.
Sean Williams was already in an upward trend by the time Mangongo left him out of the Bangladesh Tour squad so Dave Whatmore couldn;t have been responsible for his displays during the world Cup. But after that tournament, having had time to work with Sean Williams, he's a pale shadow of the batsmen we all knew. Same applied to regis Chakabva. Craig Ervine had a brilliant century, but he has been underwhelming otherwise. Only Chibhabha really has had an upward trend.
Cosmetic improvements in losing causes during the CWC fooled everyone. Everyone forgot that the reason why the contests were even close to begin with was down to the new ball bowling of Chatara & Panyangara - players who have been brilliant in all the seasons Whatmore hasn't been there.
No coach in the world could have asked fo rthe simple tours that Zimbabwe have had with very weak Indian&New Zealand sides visiting, and he messed them all up. Barring some miracle, this weak Pakistan side will prove to be the same too. There is little hope against Ireland & Afghanistan later.
This has been an absolute waste of money and overhyped appointment! #SackDaveWhatmore
Discussion
Sack Dave Whatmore
Discussion
Veteran
Saeed Ajmal wrote:"There is no difference, just that we are paying more to him, otherwise there is no difference. Waqar handled us better. He used to stress on fitness and he used to say that if your fitness is good then you are 80% okay on the ground, but if it's only 20% then you cannot do anything on the ground.
"Mohsin did well. He would scold in front [of the team] if anyone is not taking wickets or a batsman is not scoring, irrespective of if he is senior or junior. If a junior was not performing then he would say that if you don't, then you will not be able to keep your place.
"Dav is a foreign coach, he doesn't know our language much, but he is a coach and has done coaching for various countries and has helped other teams win, he is not that bad. We had our coaches, we have our language."
Member actions
ShareVeteran
bavuma_rabada wrote:This has been an absolute waste of money and overhyped appointment! #SackDaveWhatmore
I said it when Whatmore came on board that he was coming to Zim to just make a quick easy dollar, thats why he accepted that post, cos not much is expected from him. After his tenure he will just go back to wherever he was. BUT for me Whatmore is not the problem. Our players are the problem, they no longer have a hunger for the game at all, it has all been sapped out of them for over a decade of abuse and crinkum-crankum (My new buzz phrase whether used in context or not, doesnt matter). This will be so regardless who comes in to coach them, I dont think they will be helped IMO. Waller left a good job in the UK, and I knew he was a goner from day 1, Butcher tried to be too nice and friendly, NOTHING, Mangongo came with his military style and tough talk, NOTHING, so IMO Dav will not succeed either. he will give us the usual political crinkum-crankum post coaching speech and move on.
Member actions
ShareVeteran
they no longer have a hunger for the game at all
Most never had the hunger to win, only a hunger for a free lunch and cold hard cash
Member actions
ShareVeteran
bayhaus wrote:I said it when Whatmore came on board that he was coming to Zim to just make a quick easy dollar, thats why he accepted that post, cos not much is expected from him. After his tenure he will just go back to wherever he was.
Kenyon Ziehl, Dave Whatmore, Alistair Campbell! How on earth do they allow a situation where Prosper Utseya is picked? That says a lot.
They choose to play the long game - "he'll embarass himself and be smashed out of the team" - but that hasn't happened, and was never going to happen. What is worse in my view is that Prosper Utseya actually has the ability to continue to be Zimbawe's most economical bowler in ODIs because the game is longer and psychologically he gets to the batsmen and has the experience - like he showed against IND C and NZ B - and will be picked on merit. But should he be bowling at international level? No. These 3 gentlemen have embarassed themselves a lot by allowing it to get this far.
Our players are the problem, they no longer have a hunger for the game at all
I will not tire of saying the players ned to be overhauled. I started saying that when the strikes and players union set in with ridiculous salaries being demanded. Once material greed overtakes professional ambition, you lose the sincerity and motivation to excel in your profession.
That is the same with Whatmore. A motivated coach would have said give me last season's stats and let me take a look at 22 non-internationals against each other based on those stats, then face the best XI off with the incumbents, and add only those he felt are ready for the next step. Instead he went with hearsay, "proven" players who are actually average, because he was afraid to do his job properly.
As it is Roy Kaia, Zimbabwe's best batsman in the Pro50, isn't even in the ODI squad!
Dave Whatmore has sent a bad message to the youngsters, the future of ZImbabwe cricket. He has also sent the bad message about ZImbabwe's first class setup.
I am not being negative when I say he must go. I am basing this on sound reasoning. Zimbabwe can probably pay an entire indigenous technical team using his salary and still get the same or better results.
Member actions
ShareZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer
I can see the logic that if our players aren't simply good enough, it probably doesn't matter who is coaching them.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
Member actions
ShareDave whatmore i support him 100% . He is the right man for the job . do u want mangongo back or what
Member actions
Share
bavuma_rabada wrote:I am not being negative when I say he must go. I am basing this on sound reasoning. Zimbabwe can probably pay an entire indigenous technical team using his salary and still get the same or better results.
Who from the local setup has accreditation at the required level to make sure an appointment is taken seriously? Not a sarcastic retort, more a genuine question.
Also, who runs the coaching programs at ZC? What are the levels? What are the pre-requisites to go up in the food chain (apart from your surname or agreement to pick certain players)?
Info from ICC
"ICC Cricket Coach Education Endorsement and Classification Scheme
The ICC Coach Education Endorsement and Classification Scheme enables any ICC Member to submit its cricket coach education course(s) to the ICC for endorsement and classification. The process is designed to give confidence to candidates that they are undertaking a programme that meets international standards in addition to promoting and encouraging the portability of coaching skills.
The benchmarking process is split into the two components. The endorsement component matches the submitted course to one of a set of pre-defined levels (Level A, B and C), while the classification component sees a panel of experts from the Coach Education Advisory Panel (CEAP) make an assessment on the structure of the education programme submitted."
http://icc-live.s3.amazonaws.com/cms/me ... Scheme.pdf
http://icc-live.s3.amazonaws.com/cms/me ... Scheme.pdf
Member actions
ShareZCF Hall of Famer
Who should be coach then ??
I actually thought it was a great win for Zimbabwe to attract a coach who has a World Cup to his name .....
You're probably going to say Whatmore had such a great team in the 96 World Cup it was impossible for him to loose the World Cup .....
You will always find a reason or excuse why a non black man has succeeded or another reason why that have succeeded. Your comments yesterday that Flower gets no credit for the Pakistan test batting but should take all the blame for the poor shots played yesterday was just another example of your twisted way of thinking, You're always so critical of the white guys but never of the black players. You realise you have no credibility here right?
I actually thought it was a great win for Zimbabwe to attract a coach who has a World Cup to his name .....
You're probably going to say Whatmore had such a great team in the 96 World Cup it was impossible for him to loose the World Cup .....
You will always find a reason or excuse why a non black man has succeeded or another reason why that have succeeded. Your comments yesterday that Flower gets no credit for the Pakistan test batting but should take all the blame for the poor shots played yesterday was just another example of your twisted way of thinking, You're always so critical of the white guys but never of the black players. You realise you have no credibility here right?
Member actions
ShareVeteran
jaybro wrote:Who should be coach then ??
I stil lbelieve Steve Mangongo is the best coach for Zimbabwe. Many disagree and that's fine, but I believe in him. He's the best man to turn Zimbabwe's new breed of cricketers into world beaters.
You will always find a reason or excuse why a non black man has succeeded or another reason why that have succeeded. Your comments yesterday that Flower gets no credit for the Pakistan test batting but should take all the blame for the poor shots played yesterday was just another example of your twisted way of thinking, You're always so critical of the white guys but never of the black players. You realise you have no credibility here right?
Correction, I always find a way to make non-black men human and average, not overrated and deified as is routinely done here. I never appreciate it when a guy like Mangongo with decent success - virtually the highest number of current and some former Zimbabwe players due to him - is crucified unnecessarily, yet recent failures like Bundu, Butcher & Whatmore are lauded beyond necessary. Streak killed Mupariwa, then at Tuskers bowled a fraud (Querl) and relegated Mpofu&Ncube, plus Zimbabwe's Test seam attack is better now than it was under him, but no one sees both sides. Grant Flower improved no batsmen other than Taylor, whom he had multiple personal sessions with. Craig was dropped with no improvement, while Malcolm still bats like a disoriented lumberjack. Chakabva & Maruma all remained average when he left.
I don't think my views take away credibility in what I say. They only annoy you because you'd much rather not read the other side of the coin, only the one you prefer, which is natural. But what's the point in me joining a discussion to heap lopsided praise on arguments that already, unfairly have an oversupply of supporting forumites? Is that how it works in Australia?
As for Grant Flower and Pakistan, what I said is correct. You're wasting your time there. You'd be arguing a losing battle with me on that one because the facts are there to see. Former players, commentators, fans etc will agree with me. Grant Flower cannot take credit for a Misbah, Younis, Ali, Shafiq etc.
Umar Akmal and Hafeez had to be dropped. Shehzad hasn't kicked on as world cricket expected before Grant arrived. I can probably give him Sarfraz Ahmed, one of my favourite players lately, and definitely world cricket's number one test keeper batsman. This is a process and it will take time. He's had just over a year. The real tangible benefits are negligible, same as when he was with Zimbabwe. So he will be judged in time with this bunch of batsman...or be fired. What's wrong with my view?
"That's why we hired him - especially for this tour."
Pakistan coach Waqar Younis jokes about his team's inside information from batting coach Grant Flower, who has worked extensively with Zimbabwe.
Member actions
ShareZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer
bavuma_rabada, unfortunately your other friends at ZC do not like Mangongo so I would be surprised if he gets another shot.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
Member actions
ShareVeteran
Waller, Hondo jobs on the line
Zimmbabwe's best performing department in all series, particularly this Afghanistan one, was the bowling. The worst performing department was the batting - Whatmore&Bundu are former Tests batsman.
Sacking the suppoting coaches but retaining the head coach. 😂
Anyway, Hondo to the A Team. He'll soon join Mangongo back in the national team.
HARARE - Zimbabwe Cricket (ZC) specialist coaches, Andy Waller (batting) and Douglas Hondo (bowling) face the axe as the organisation tries to seek scapegoats following the humiliating series defeats to Afghanistan.
The tourists became the first Associate nation to secure a series win over a Test-playing side when they sealed a 3-2 win over Zimbabwe at Queens Sports Club at the weekend.
With the series tied on 2-2 going into Sunday’s match, Afghanistan proved to the world that their earlier two victories in the series were no fluke as they romped to an emphatic 73-run win.
Barely 24 hours later, ZC chairman Tavengwa Mukuhlani convened an emergency board meeting in Harare where the delegates deliberated on the humiliating defeat and decided to part ways with Waller and Hondo.
“The loss claimed its first casualties in the technical department where the board members decided to fire the batting coach with immediate effect while at the same time relegating the bowling coach to the development side, Zimbabwe A,” a source at ZC told the Daily News.
“The news would however, be only made public after the board makes tangible inroads in their quest for international replacements.
“They are not going to let head coach Dav Whatmore decide on the personnel he wants, they agreed to go it alone this time.”
Whatmore’s position was not discussed at the meeting and the Daily News understands he still has the backing of ZC.
Afghanistan coach Inzamam-ul-Haq has been touted as a possible replacement for Waller and the ZC officials will now try to lure him to become a member of Whatmore’s backroom staff.
The 45-year-old former Pakistan batsman, who was considered the best batsman in the world against pace, was regarded as a symbol of strength and subtlety during his playing days.
ZC chief executive Wilfred Mukondiwa could neither confirm nor deny the reports when contacted for comment.
“It’s not business as usual; we are aware of that (Zimbabwe’s waning fortunes) and we are taking the necessary steps to make sure we avoid such scenes in future,” told the Daily News.
“The board met on Sunday but we can’t disclose what was discussed until the time is ripe and a statement will be circulated.”
Zimmbabwe's best performing department in all series, particularly this Afghanistan one, was the bowling. The worst performing department was the batting - Whatmore&Bundu are former Tests batsman.
Sacking the suppoting coaches but retaining the head coach. 😂
Anyway, Hondo to the A Team. He'll soon join Mangongo back in the national team.
Member actions
ShareZCF Hall of Famer
Hahah look at the bowling stats since Hondo took over pretty much all the bowlers except for Chatara are averaging 60's and 70's and you claim bowling isn't a problem 😂 😂 😂 😂
Member actions
ShareZCF Hall of Famer
In a team that is under performing it's nearly always the batsmen who are failing to fire. I keep saying this but specialist batsmen are a breed unto themselves. They spend countless hours seeking perfection- much like Taylor getting throw downs from Flower and supposedly monopolising him, which Rubber Mbava was so scathing about. Continuous attempts to create top batters from capable all-rounders will continue to fail, but it seems to be beyond the comprehension of 95% of all coaches and administrators. I see the 20-30 minutes spent in the nets during a team practice and then the puzzled looks when that doesn't translate into consistently big innings and just shake my head.
Booting Bundu and Douggie shows that panic has really set in. Douggie Honda was a seamer, what does he know about spin as a matter of interest?
It may come down to nobody really wanting the job and them having to call on Steve or Walter. I'm one of the few guys that think Steve is a good fit for the job. He takes no s**t from anyone. A white guy can't say anything bad because the dreaded R card gets pulled faster than you can blink.
Booting Bundu and Douggie shows that panic has really set in. Douggie Honda was a seamer, what does he know about spin as a matter of interest?
It may come down to nobody really wanting the job and them having to call on Steve or Walter. I'm one of the few guys that think Steve is a good fit for the job. He takes no s**t from anyone. A white guy can't say anything bad because the dreaded R card gets pulled faster than you can blink.
Member actions
ShareVeteran
Googly wrote:In a team that is under performing it's nearly always the batsmen who are failing to fire.
Apparently the great Bundu Waller has improved every batsman. ;)
Douggie Honda was a seamer, what does he know about spin as a matter of interest?
+1
I'm one of the few guys that think Steve is a good fit for the job. He takes no sh*t from anyone.
Welcome to the club. :D
Member actions
Share