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Elton Chigumbura is here to stay as Captain!

Zimbabwe Cricket Forum 30 posts 103 views

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Veteran

Opening post

I think the forum must take it easy on these replace Elton Chigumbura comments. He's had a very good record since becoming captain. In those 15 months he's captained in 31 matches, 853 runs, 36 avg, 2 hundreds and 2 fifties at a Strike rate of 83.

No way he's getting sacked after just 15 months I can promise you. If you look at the stats closely you'll see that Craig, Raza, Willaims & Chibhabha have dispappointed or failed to deliver in some of the most important moments since the CWC, so the same being said about Chigumbura for yesterday's match, would have been said about them anyway after those several matches where they flopped bigtime under pressure.

Chigumbura has stood up when Zimbabwe has faced the biggest challenges:

- 90 vs SA to save Zimbabwe from mega embarassment

- stood tall against AUS when everyone else failed

- half century & partnerships with Mire+Regis to prevent embarassment in the Bangaldesh ODIs

- great efforts with bat & ball in two of the Tests in Bangladesh

- His great century nearly won Zimbabwe the 1st ODI against Pakistan away with the whole world watching and set the tone for the rest for the rest of the series

- Again he set the tone for the T20 Series away in Pakistan with a near match-winning half-century with even more of the world watching and paying attention.

- 100 aginst India after that when everyone else flopped - the 2nd strongest attack in Zimbabwe after Pakistan this year, only Chibhabha did well in that India Series

- His fearless half-century ensured Zimbabwe's 2nd greatest ODI victory in maybe 10 years (after Australia) when they beat Pakistan.

No other Zimbabwean batsman has made a bigger impact since he became captain! He has simply outbatted Willaims, Hami & Raza, yet until the last 2-3 years only, he has never really been a top batsman when discussing Zimbabwean batsmen in general. In comparison, the only innings that stands out about Taylor in all that time is his century against India, but that's about it(Ireland's batsmen scored their runs much higher in the order against a stronger attack, and won the match for their side). Overall Chigumbura has stood head&shoulders above every other batsman. In T20s pretty much everyone has scored a half-century, with Hami alone not scoring a half-century but being the most consistent.

None of the other players really have raised their hands up conclusively in all formats. Williams' bowling has been economical with his strike rate the worst in the team, plus he's gone missing in every important match with the bat. For someone batting so low, Raza has been underwhelming more often than not, especially in T20s with bat&ball. His bowling a liabilty, but he has made no doubt made Dua and has at least two umpires in his christmas list. :D Chigumbura aside, only Chibhabha can lift his hand up and say his performances have been up there at the most crucial times, but he didn't face SA, AUS&BD and triumph so that doesn't count.

If enthusiasm and being vocal in the field was the only requirement for captaincy, one of my favourite characters Romesh Kaluwitharana would have captained Sri Lanka at least once.(?)

Anyway, the earliest they'll review that Chigumbura captaincy decision is maybe 2017 if something goes wrong, but I doubt Zimbabwe will be playing enough after 2015 for that to be judged accurately. In any case - Mutombodzi, Chakabva, Mutumbami etc, all experienced FC captains will be in the frame to take over anyway with 2019 CWC in view.

But it would be interesting to know what - other than a selective memory - leads others to think Chigumbura has to be replaced, and how the decision-makers would justify their choice of replacement based on stats or ability to cope under pressure, considering a lot of the favourites have flopped badly overall barring one or two occasions.
ZCF Hall of Famer
But you're happy to sack Whatmore ??
Veteran
yay he good in the losing games when the pressures off lol
ZCF Hall of Famer
I wouldn't drop Elton from the side, I'm on the fence about his captaincy but honestly B_V what was he thinking yesterday his innings gave us no chance ???

I know you rate him as a bowler so do I, don't you think as the captain he should be standing up and bowling not leaving it for poor Chamu to be the opening batsman and first change bowler ??
Veteran

jaybro wrote:But you're happy to sack Whatmore ??

Wharmore signed on his terms with claims of power, yet failed to sack Utseya, dropped Kaia & selected Malcolm, dropped Hami on the basis of "form", plus the team has had big lows with btting disasters which can only get worse in Bangladesh. Of the highs luck and the opposition's own strange failures have contributed more. Signs of improvement in the team limited. Even if some of the decisions were made by other people, he had the power to veto them&walk away. He didn't. Greed seems to have overtaken his original objectives. I'm not happy with ZC paying over the odds to supplement that kind of "return".

I have a funny feeling that out of Curran, Butcher, Bundu, Mangongo etc, Whatmore will have the biggest baggage and worst rap to follow him after he leaves. Mangongo's Taylor dropping, Panyangara video were dealt with there and there. But he introduced planty of youth, and also brought back the white players - Craig, took Waller to BD, called up Mire one of his proteges(&Matsi :D ) etc as his "advantages". Everything he did was dealt with there&there.

Whatmore has far too many questions. The answers won't be pretty. He will fall out with everyone - black, white, players, admins, fans etc. Brace yourself ;)
ZCF Hall of Famer
Mongongo fell out with everyone all the players wanted him gone and so did the admin that's why he got sacked .....

Whatmore at least has the backing of the players, not too sure about the admin you can never really trust ZC as your mate Steve will tell you ......

Just out of curiosity if Mongongo is the best coach to come out of Africa ( your words ) how come he hasn't scored a better job somewhere else ??
Veteran

jaybro wrote:I know you rate him as a bowler so do I, don't you think as the captain he should be standing up and bowling not leaving it for poor Chamu to be the opening batsman and first change bowler ??

Just like Panyangar, Elton is not suited to bowling in ODIs.

Law changes have made it possible for Panyangara to cope bowling in ODIs, maybe Elton should consider taking the new ball in LOIs too. He'd definitely take more wickets for the team than the inconsistent seam attack. He's a wicket-taker. Chatara's output would be like Panyangara's one or two wicekts on average.

Vitori aside who's struggling, Zimbabwe best wicket-taking seamer in the last 10 years has been Chigumbura.

This is what Chigumbura can do with ball :D (still faster than most seamers in my view, certainly faster than Panyangara)
ZCF Hall of Famer

bavuma_rabada wrote:

jaybro wrote:I know you rate him as a bowler so do I, don't you think as the captain he should be standing up and bowling not leaving it for poor Chamu to be the opening batsman and first change bowler ??

Just like Panyangar, Elton is not suited to bowling in ODIs.

Law changes have made it possible for Panyangara to cope bowling in ODIs, maybe Elton should consider taking the new ball in LOIs too. He'd definitely take more wickets for the team than the inconsistent seam attack. He's a wicket-taker. Chatara's output would be like Panyangara's one or two wicekts on average.

Vitori aside who's struggling, Zimbabwe best wicket-taking seamer in the last 10 years has been Chigumbura.


All bowlers have to deal with bowling changes Tinashe is no different, I don't understand your logic that these changes have made it impossible for him ??

So do you want Elton bowling more or not ??
Veteran

jaybro wrote:Mongongo fell out with everyone all the players wanted him gone and so did the admin that's why he got sacked .....

You haven't read some of the news links I posted. I doubt Chigumbura, Hami, Utseya, Shingi, Chatara etc wanted him gone. Mushangwe&Panyangara probably took that as we all do as Africans when elders reprimand us. We move on like nothing happened.

Manase came in and had influence from AC. The biggest fear planted in their minds was ZImbabwe is sinking, and if they sink further no more money for anyone embezzle. One thing is certain, if Manase & AC came in tomorrow and Mangongo had the same record as Whatmore has up until now, with the CWC starting in two months, they would have fired him. So I doubt it's just off-pitch drama which contributed to Mangongo being sacked. In fact when some people starting making noise about Whamtore to be sacked they will say the very things I've been saying and more. Don;t be surprised if someone poweful says - "Why exactly was Mangongo fired".

This is about Chigumbura's captaincy though so...
ZCF Hall of Famer
It's a known fact the team moral was down on the BD series, put it down to SM or not that's up to the individual to decide. The telling factor is there was no up roar from anyone when SM was sacked, BRMT stated it was the BD series where decided he was leaving he wasn't happy the direction the team was going, after all the years of getting smashed and player strikes only under SM he wasn't happy where the team was going !!! That speaks volumes .....

Anyways back to my other question how come he hasn't attracted an overseas job??
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer

bavuma_rabada wrote:ZImbabwe are being thumped by sides who hardly prepared for them. Imagine if this Zimbabwe played against sides captained by the likes of Stephen Fleming and they did homework before selecting touring squads! Would Zimbabwe score over 100 runs half the time?


Certainly gives you extra respect for the team from the glory days of the 90s. The Flower's, Streak, Goodwin, Johnson, Campbell, Whittall, etc really had it much tougher to hang with the big boys.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer
Crimson, you champion
The Third Innings
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer

Jemisi wrote:Crimson, you champion

:)

Continuing with the theme...


bavuma_rabada wrote:Generally speaking:

Is Whatmore a better, more experienced coach than Mangongo? Yes

Is Ziehl a better convenor than Makoni? Yes

I don't think my reasoning has argued that. I know Makoni&Mangongo have a shorter & shallower cricket background.

For Zimbabwe:

Is Mangongo a better coach? Yes

Is Makoni a better selector? Yes


A well known example:

Premise 1: All human beings think

Premise 2: Socrates is a human being

Hypothesis 1: Socrates thinks - clearly follows from premise 1 and 2

Hypothesis 2: Socrates doesn't think - contradiction

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Premise 1: Whatmore is a better and more experienced coach (in general, given the situation of all cricket playing nations)

Premise 2: Zimbabwe is a cricket playing nation (trivial, otherwise this forum won't exist)

Hypothesis 1: Whatmore is a better and more experienced coach for Zimbabwe (follows from the Socrates example)

Hypothesis 2: Mangongo is a batter coach for Zimbabwe - contradiction (follows from the Socrates example).

If still unclear, one can write a Venn diagram and check. Premise 1 subsumes Hypothesis 1. Same proofs can be given to Zeihl and Makoni. And yes, thank you for giving an opportunity to brush up my predicate calculus and reasoning skills :)
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer
bavuma_rabada must be in a state of aporia by now.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
ZCF Hall of Famer
Since Elton's back to back centuries he is averaging just over 20 with a poor strike rate, according to Bavuma and Rabada his spot should be under scrutiny since Williams spot is and he is averaging 25 plus Elton is bowling unlike Sean ......
Veteran

jaybro wrote:Since Elton's back to back centuries he is averaging just over 20 with a poor strike rate, according to Bavuma and Rabada his spot should be under scrutiny since Williams spot is and he is averaging 25 plus Elton is bowling unlike Sean ......

When I mentioned Hami's dropping I said, if it's based on form then both Williams & Chigumbura should have been dropped first, but Chigumbura would not because he is captain. I also repeated that statement in the thread I created to dissect Hami's dropping. Unlike you guys my comments are consistent. If you're not busy hypothesising sweet nothings with Crimson using U grade JC logic, you would pick these sort of things up. ;)
ZCF Hall of Famer

bavuma_rabada wrote:

jaybro wrote:Since Elton's back to back centuries he is averaging just over 20 with a poor strike rate, according to Bavuma and Rabada his spot should be under scrutiny since Williams spot is and he is averaging 25 plus Elton is bowling unlike Sean ......

When I mentioned Hami's dropping I said, if it's based on form then both Williams & Chigumbura should have been dropped first, but Chigumbura would not because he is captain. I also repeated that statement in the thread I created to dissect Hami's dropping. Unlike you guys my comments are consistent. If you're not busy hypothesising sweet nothings with Crimson using U grade JC logic, you would pick these sort of things up. ;)


The only thing consistent about you is the garbage you dribble :D
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer
Well this is easily solved. Make Williams captain and drop Chigs.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
ZCF OriginalVeteran

CrimsonAvenger wrote:

Jemisi wrote:Crimson, you champion

:)

Continuing with the theme...


bavuma_rabada wrote:Generally speaking:

Is Whatmore a better, more experienced coach than Mangongo? Yes

Is Ziehl a better convenor than Makoni? Yes

I don't think my reasoning has argued that. I know Makoni&Mangongo have a shorter & shallower cricket background.

For Zimbabwe:

Is Mangongo a better coach? Yes

Is Makoni a better selector? Yes


A well known example:

Premise 1: All human beings think

Premise 2: Socrates is a human being

Hypothesis 1: Socrates thinks - clearly follows from premise 1 and 2

Hypothesis 2: Socrates doesn't think - contradiction

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Premise 1: Whatmore is a better and more experienced coach (in general, given the situation of all cricket playing nations)

Premise 2: Zimbabwe is a cricket playing nation (trivial, otherwise this forum won't exist)

Hypothesis 1: Whatmore is a better and more experienced coach for Zimbabwe (follows from the Socrates example)

Hypothesis 2: Mangongo is a batter coach for Zimbabwe - contradiction (follows from the Socrates example).

If still unclear, one can write a Venn diagram and check. Premise 1 subsumes Hypothesis 1. Same proofs can be given to Zeihl and Makoni. And yes, thank you for giving an opportunity to brush up my predicate calculus and reasoning skills :)


Mogambo (dont even want to write his name) = DISASTER everywhere

Captaincy = Raza
Zim fanatic since 1987
Veteran
If chigumbura bagged 5 consecutive ducks now coming in at number 5 It woudnt be his fault in a certain forumers eyes it would be Whatmores for putting him in that position. Lets just face facts that their is always a escape route for players of certain pigmentations poor form forumers in one persons eyes.

Me? If they got in the side through a meritocracy and are scoring runs whatever colour then great :D

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