http://stats.espncricinfo.com/zimbabwe/ ... ;type=team
He currently has the best ODI batting average (36.96) of any Zimbabwean - thanks eugene for pointing this stat out. Against top 8 teams that rises to 38.43.
So two questions - who is currently considered Zim's best ever ODI batsman? And is Craig Ervine on track to become better than that person?
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Could Craig Ervine become Zimbabwe's best ever ODI batsman?
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I'm glad you opened this post because I had in mind something similar as a response to eugene...but I think his comment was rather sarcastic and as usual naughty. But you took it seriously so here goes.
Craig Ervine is naturally a darling of everyone. He came in at a time when Zimbabwean cricket fans were desperately looking for something, or someone, new and refreshing. There was Hami, Taylor, Taibu, Matsi, Vusi, Chibhabha, Vermeulen, Mutizwa and Duffin, but most had had enough of these guys. Some pretenders were thrown in e.g. Strydom but the class was never there.
So when Craig Ervine came through and was able to stick it out, plus there was a CWC around the corner which he did well in that was great. Also sdecent Indian&Sri Lankan sides came through during those 3 spinners and one seamer days (Price, Utseya & Cremer) and Zimbabwe did well in that Tri-Series. I think Ervine also endeared himself to a lot of fans.
But the big question is "Could Craig Ervine become Zimbabwe's best ever ODI batsman?".
The answer is a resounding NO!!! Why? Next posts
Craig Ervine is naturally a darling of everyone. He came in at a time when Zimbabwean cricket fans were desperately looking for something, or someone, new and refreshing. There was Hami, Taylor, Taibu, Matsi, Vusi, Chibhabha, Vermeulen, Mutizwa and Duffin, but most had had enough of these guys. Some pretenders were thrown in e.g. Strydom but the class was never there.
So when Craig Ervine came through and was able to stick it out, plus there was a CWC around the corner which he did well in that was great. Also sdecent Indian&Sri Lankan sides came through during those 3 spinners and one seamer days (Price, Utseya & Cremer) and Zimbabwe did well in that Tri-Series. I think Ervine also endeared himself to a lot of fans.
But the big question is "Could Craig Ervine become Zimbabwe's best ever ODI batsman?".
The answer is a resounding NO!!! Why? Next posts
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I've always maintained that Craig Ervine got a big benefit because the team had weak fixtures against weak or weakened teams, plus lots of A games doing the rounds. Plus the FC setup was a bit stronger then with overseas based players as well as longer or deeper calenders. That certainly helped his preparation. But has he really made the most of it?
Craig Ervine made his debut in 2010 so only considering players' stats from 1 May 2010, proves that Craig Ervine is far from the best.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting
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If we were to reason like that then it's fair to say Brendan Taylor is a world class batsmen purely by comparing him to the measure of Craig's career. What makes it worse is that Hami & Vusi were openers for the most part, same with Chibhabha. hence the number of ducks they collected.
But while Taylor and Williams were able to sinificantly make use of the easy middle orders, Craig Ervine could not. Even Chigumbura and Utseya, both naturally bowling allrounders, were able to significantly improve their averages due to the ease of batting lower.
So if Craig Ervine was trully great, or had the potential to be great, he should be having better stats than Taylor. That query gets interestign when you switch to Tests, T20s, and all combined. It proves beyond all doubt that using the term "best" with him is a crime.
NB: Look just how pathetic Charles Coventry is, yet the overpaid&overrated Alistair Campbell&Dave Whatmore moved mountains to bring him back. Pathetic! lamb is worse than Utseya but some still want him back. As for Malcolm Waller, he isn't much of an upgrade on Utseya at all now is he?
Craig Ervine made his debut in 2010 so only considering players' stats from 1 May 2010, proves that Craig Ervine is far from the best.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting
ALLODIS1.jpg
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If we were to reason like that then it's fair to say Brendan Taylor is a world class batsmen purely by comparing him to the measure of Craig's career. What makes it worse is that Hami & Vusi were openers for the most part, same with Chibhabha. hence the number of ducks they collected.
But while Taylor and Williams were able to sinificantly make use of the easy middle orders, Craig Ervine could not. Even Chigumbura and Utseya, both naturally bowling allrounders, were able to significantly improve their averages due to the ease of batting lower.
So if Craig Ervine was trully great, or had the potential to be great, he should be having better stats than Taylor. That query gets interestign when you switch to Tests, T20s, and all combined. It proves beyond all doubt that using the term "best" with him is a crime.
NB: Look just how pathetic Charles Coventry is, yet the overpaid&overrated Alistair Campbell&Dave Whatmore moved mountains to bring him back. Pathetic! lamb is worse than Utseya but some still want him back. As for Malcolm Waller, he isn't much of an upgrade on Utseya at all now is he?
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Don't worry, you won't get much argument about Coventry on this forum, and Waller doesn't have many fans either. Craig Ervine has performed admirably and I am one of his biggest fans, but I still rate him behind Sean Williams and Hamilton "Santa Claus" Masakadza.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
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In Tests over that period, Taylor, Raza, Hami, Taibu, Chakabva, Mawoyo, Chigumbura & Sibanda in that order are higher than Craig (all of which makes Kriterion's comments even more laughable), so I won't bother posting that, except to say that he doesn't bat in the top 3, yet has managed to be worse not only than Mawoyo, Hami&Vusi in the line of fire, but failed to be higher than Chigumbura.
What I will post is the all combined.
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Clearly Williams & Craig Ervine are overrated. They should be averaging 35+ at least from their favoured 5/6. I expected Raza to be #2 but he's only been batting much lower in the order recently so he should rise up that list.
Chibhabha and Chigumbura are the enigmas because they have improved with more responsibilities higher up the order, but again it hasn;t lasted long with Chigumbura, and with Chibhabha I expect him to feel the pinch too, just as it happened with Raza after soome time opening. Interestingly Chibhabha's only innings outside the top 3 was this one against West Indies (when Mushangwe & Mutombodzi were so impressive with the ball). But he felt at home.
Taylor averages 36 as an opener in that period, but of course it excludes Tests.
What I will post is the all combined.
ALLCOMBINED1.jpg
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Clearly Williams & Craig Ervine are overrated. They should be averaging 35+ at least from their favoured 5/6. I expected Raza to be #2 but he's only been batting much lower in the order recently so he should rise up that list.
Chibhabha and Chigumbura are the enigmas because they have improved with more responsibilities higher up the order, but again it hasn;t lasted long with Chigumbura, and with Chibhabha I expect him to feel the pinch too, just as it happened with Raza after soome time opening. Interestingly Chibhabha's only innings outside the top 3 was this one against West Indies (when Mushangwe & Mutombodzi were so impressive with the ball). But he felt at home.
Taylor averages 36 as an opener in that period, but of course it excludes Tests.
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eugene wrote:Don't worry, you won't get much argument about Coventry on this forum, and Waller doesn't have many fans either. Craig Ervine has performed admirably and I am one of his biggest fans, but I still rate him behind Sean Williams and Hamilton "Santa Claus" Masakadza.
The problem eugene is that the strongest attack Zimbabwe have faced throughout Craig Ervine's career is Bangladesh. In those matches Craig Ervine averages just 26 FROM THE MIDLLE ORDER (5,6&7), and his highest score is 46. I'm not sure "performed admirably" fits the bill.
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Don't you think that you should maybe find another word or phrase to use perhaps. I mean to put things in perspective, the frustrating Vusi Sibanda averaged 33 against Bangladesh and he was an opening the batting.
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How have you decided that the strongest attack he has faced is Bangladesh?
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
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bavuma_rabada wrote:Craig Ervine is naturally a darling of everyone.
Having spent way too much time on this forum in the last four years, I can, most assuredly, tell you that this is not the case! He's got as much stick as anyone when his form failed him and a lot more when he left for pastures greener.
As of late, every second or third post tells me (from various forumites, this is not only directed at hhm) that player xy is or has been a forum favourite. These generalisations are simply boring, folks. Each and every player has his fan base, some are more vocal than others, some ebb and flow with the ebb and flow of the player's form. The opinions here are just as diverse as our membership. Some like to argue, some like to shout, some like to stir up trouble, some like to enjoy the play.
It would be nice for a change (but maybe too boring for some) to stop these generalisations that often amount to nothing more than shouting and sarcastic shouting back.*
If you would take the care to actually read what people have said about Craig Ervine's batting in the past or what fellows who know more about these aspects than I do have had to say about Graeme Cremer's bowling from a purely technical perspective, you might realise, hhm, that this forum is not ruled by a white suprematist conspiracy. The issues are not as black and white (no pun intended) as you make them out to be.
* I recently learned that I was, due to my nationality, supporting Raza as Zimbabwe's next Test captain. That was news to me indeed. And no, Sir, Slug is not my darling, but much like bayhaus I had to doff my cap at his recent displays.
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Same old story here from rubharda_bavada you paint us all with the same brush saying we all love Coventry and Waller and Ervine is the forum darling here's a tip start actually reading what others write and stop filling the forum with your BS ....
You seem to forget how Ervine was the top runscorer in the West Indies when we had a very strong team in 2013 ?? All this s**t about him playing against weak attacks f**k off the same guys play the same attacks. U keep saying how it only scored the century against NZ because Boult and Southee weren't there, well the fact is when ever someone plays Zimbabwe they usually rest a few guys just like Australia did against Zim when the mighty Mongongo masterminded Zimbabwe to a famous victory .......
You seem to forget how Ervine was the top runscorer in the West Indies when we had a very strong team in 2013 ?? All this s**t about him playing against weak attacks f**k off the same guys play the same attacks. U keep saying how it only scored the century against NZ because Boult and Southee weren't there, well the fact is when ever someone plays Zimbabwe they usually rest a few guys just like Australia did against Zim when the mighty Mongongo masterminded Zimbabwe to a famous victory .......
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Plus NZ has some of the best fast bowling depth in ODI cricket at the moment. Even without Boult and Southee NZ still has a better attack than most.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
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foreignfield wrote:
bavuma_rabada wrote:Craig Ervine is naturally a darling of everyone.
Having spent way too much time on this forum in the last four years, I can, most assuredly, tell you that this is not the case! He's got as much stick as anyone when his form failed him and a lot more when he left for pastures greener.
As of late, every second or third post tells me (from various forumites, this is not only directed at hhm) that player xy is or has been a forum favourite. These generalisations are simply boring, folks. Each and every player has his fan base, some are more vocal than others, some ebb and flow with the ebb and flow of the player's form. The opinions here are just as diverse as our membership. Some like to argue, some like to shout, some like to stir up trouble, some like to enjoy the play.
It would be nice for a change (but maybe too boring for some) to stop these generalisations that often amount to nothing more than shouting and sarcastic shouting back.*
If you would take the care to actually read what people have said about Craig Ervine's batting in the past or what fellows who know more about these aspects than I do have had to say about Graeme Cremer's bowling from a purely technical perspective, you might realise, hhm, that this forum is not ruled by a white suprematist conspiracy. The issues are not as black and white (no pun intended) as you make them out to be.
* I recently learned that I was, due to my nationality, supporting Raza as Zimbabwe's next Test captain. That was news to me indeed. And no, Sir, Slug is not my darling, but much like bayhaus I had to doff my cap at his recent displays.
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jaybro wrote: U keep saying how it only scored the century against NZ because Boult and Southee weren't there, well the fact is when ever someone plays Zimbabwe they usually rest a few guys just like Australia did against Zim when the mighty Mongongo masterminded Zimbabwe to a famous victory .......
That Aussie side was pretty strong, Starc was there, and I think almost all the other first stringers.
Bangladesh cricket fanatic, observer of all others.
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bavuma_rabada wrote:In Tests over that period, Taylor, Raza, Hami, Taibu, Chakabva, Mawoyo, Chigumbura & Sibanda in that order are higher than Craig (all of which makes Kriterion's comments even more laughable), so I won't bother posting that, except to say that he doesn't bat in the top 3, yet has managed to be worse not only than Mawoyo, Hami&Vusi in the line of fire, but failed to be higher than Chigumbura.
Yes, I've rated Ervine fairly highly and you can blame that awesome unbeaten ton he just scored against NZ. Yeah sure it was against a second string attack, but as eugene said, even second string NZ pacers would walk into most other teams first XIs. And it was also a quality knock under pressure of chasing 300. Was it a fluke, we don't know yet...if he does similar things again in the near future, we'll know it wasn't. But regardless it was of a quality that the likes of Sibanda, Maruma, or even Hamilton can't provide. He needs to be given time in Tests.
IMO, this is the best bunch of recent ZIM players (last 5 years or so) rated on a scale of 1-99. The Dale Steyns and Virat Kohlis of the world would be rated 99, or nearly so.
Taylor - 84
Jarvis - 80 (Tests only, ODI would be like a 60)
Chatara - 78
Williams - 79 (ODIs only, potential still to surpass Taylor depending on Test production)
Price - 78
Chakabva - 77 (Tests only)
Taibu - 75
Mawayo - 75
Panyangara - 75
Ervine - 75 (potentially to go higher)
Hamilton - 73
Raza - 73
Cremer - 71 (potential to go higher)
Chigumbura - 70
Vitori - 65
Sibanda - 62
Utseya - 60 (in his prime was probably a 72ish)
Bangladesh cricket fanatic, observer of all others.
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foreignfield wrote:...
I think the administrators if they fair - maehara & BRM, or a simple search by yourself would prove that Cremer has undue praise and backing from the majority here. I've wrote several stats-backed complaints about his continued presence and the responses have not been pretty. None of this is new so I know very well.
Slug is Sean Ervine, not Craig Ervine so I'm not sure who you're refering to now. But by referring to bayhaus then you must mean Craig. He had poor form at the time and some people rightly pointed that out...only with less venom than I think Vusi has received. eugene's other name is Craig Ervine in my book, but I have to say that it's not just him. Many people here have shown undue affection towards him.
Even now most people would pick him in a Test XI in a heart-beat, but forget that he was poor in Bangladesh and West Indies before that. How do you explain that? He's only had one 50 and one century in 21 innings across all formats since March 2013, and his last Logan Cup was a disaster.
I wasn't here so how did you guys stomach his selection for the shortlist, and finally the squad to Bangladesh? Where is the petition against his inclusion (or other guilty names for tha matter)? I know no other national team that selects or drops players based on non-FC/non-List A practice matches between the squad members/shortlist.
Comments linked to a certain set of players and comments linked to another set of players often reveal a lot. If things were right Coventry, Waller, Craig & Cremer should all not have been aorund the Zimbabwe team right now or in the recent past - on merit! Would any neutral arrive at that correct conclusion by reading this forum? You decide, and think to yourself what your answer tells you. ;)
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bavuma_rabada wrote:Slug is Sean Ervine, not Craig Ervine so I'm not sure who you're refering to now.
I'm pretty sure Craig's teammates also call him Slug? Lazy nicknaming going on. Next thing eugene will call Shingi 'Rudolph' and Wellington "Reindeer" 😂
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foreignfield wrote:I'm pretty sure Craig's teammates also call him Slug?
Yeah they do...
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Pretty sure i've seen Sikandar Raza call him "Slug" on twitter too.
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SpitfiresKent wrote:
foreignfield wrote:I'm pretty sure Craig's teammates also call him Slug?
Yeah they do...
Image
Pretty sure i've seen Sikandar Raza call him "Slug" on twitter too.
Everybody calls him slug ......
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hhm,
I think you tell a good story forensically when you want to on the stat trail, but i think you do tend to overlook one detail. Or a few mind you.
Confidence, mental strength and general improvement.
Someone like Chamu has come into his own, im convinced. Telltale signs are Craig has followed.
Also you always state the middle order is some safe haven for batsman, but alot of people prefer to open because of the rock hard ball and general absence of spin there.
I think that Craig is a player suited to the top, I agree with you there. The way he builds his innings is superb and he is a stroke maker.
I think you tell a good story forensically when you want to on the stat trail, but i think you do tend to overlook one detail. Or a few mind you.
Confidence, mental strength and general improvement.
Someone like Chamu has come into his own, im convinced. Telltale signs are Craig has followed.
Also you always state the middle order is some safe haven for batsman, but alot of people prefer to open because of the rock hard ball and general absence of spin there.
I think that Craig is a player suited to the top, I agree with you there. The way he builds his innings is superb and he is a stroke maker.
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jaybro wrote:All this s*** about him playing against weak attacks f*** off the same guys play the same attacks.
Good point. hhm likes to diminish the achievements of the players he doesn't like by saying all their runs come against C and D string attacks. Meanwhile the likes of Matsikenyeri and Maruma can't buy a run against those same attacks?
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