Gents,
Somethig I dont see discussed much here, and is a bit of an elephant in the room if you think about it, is the great handover thats inevitable after the 2019 World cup.
And I am very, very worried.
Lets look at what the most commonly believed best Zimbabwean team is at the moment, with their ages next to it.
1 Hamilton (32)
2 Chamu (29)
3 Ervine (30)
4 Williams (29)
5 Raza (29)
6 Elton (29)
7 Chakabva (28)
8 Jongwe (20)
9 Cremer (29)
10 panyangara (30 in a weeks time)
11 Chatara (24)
12 Prosper* (30)
13 Waller (30)
This means at the next world cup;
1 Hamilton (36)
2 Chamu (33)
3 Ervine (34)
4 Williams (33)
5 Raza (33)
6 Elton (33)
7 Chakabva (32)
8 Jongwe (24)
9 Cremer (33)
10 panyangara (34)
11 Chatara (32)
12 Prosper* (34)
13 Waller (34)
Given that around the 31-33 age is considered a batsmans peak, and a few years earlier for bowlers, we have a real quandry.
- We have a team coming into their peak, the building, struggle and seeds of the last ten years will be leading to their glorious climax.
- The team cannot exist beyond the next cup. As it is, it may be too long for Panyangara and Hami. Prosper will still be sulking around writing letters to whoever has the time to read them but by then the gig will well and truly be up.
So what happens now?
Do we sacrifice some blooming players for the future?
Do we have the goods in the cupboard?
Regardless, there is only one frightening fact, only one* current player will still be at playing age after the next World cup. This can get really ugly folks if something isnt looked at.
one* could in fact be two as Cremer could theoretically keep going well beyond the next cup as leggies can easily go to their forties. Cant see it happening though, doubt he'd stick around that long, and even if he did, remember they punted Price at 36.
Discussion
The great handover
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As an afterthought,
Is there a chance we could 'cheat' once again and bring in a player from abroad Raza style?
Wadlan, we are looking at you.
Is there a chance we could 'cheat' once again and bring in a player from abroad Raza style?
Wadlan, we are looking at you.
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ZIMDOGGY, it's exactly what I was thinking a few days when I wrote viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11633
I think we need to seriously consider bringing in a 18/19/20 yo batsman right now and persist with them, such that when the scenario you describe occurs we already have an experienced player with 60+ ODI's under their belt, who has played alongside the current senior players - this person could in theory lead the transition between this generation and the next. Even if they aren't the best batsman (I'd settle for this guy to have a 24/25 average in 4 years time), it will be important to have someone with experience otherwise we could just have a repeat of 2004-05.
The key point I'm trying to make is that we pick someone young and persist with them. We might cycle through the likes of the Chari's and Moor's and Kasuza's et al and find that in 4 or 5 years time they only have 15 ODIs under their belt. That's not enough experience to oversee any transition where they would be the nominal senior players. We've made this mistake already with Vitori (19 ODI's in 4 years, albeit as a bowler) when really he should have been groomed to be the new attack leader. And that mistake has bitten us hard with Chatara's injury.
I'm not suggesting that this anointed batsman is an automatic selection in every game; but he should be picked in every squad almost regardless of form (if he averages 18+ in the internationals he plays, keep him - similar to how we persisted with Chibhabha) with the expectation that he'll probably play 1 in 3 matches over the next 5 years. Probably dead rubbers when the series is lost.
I think we need to seriously consider bringing in a 18/19/20 yo batsman right now and persist with them, such that when the scenario you describe occurs we already have an experienced player with 60+ ODI's under their belt, who has played alongside the current senior players - this person could in theory lead the transition between this generation and the next. Even if they aren't the best batsman (I'd settle for this guy to have a 24/25 average in 4 years time), it will be important to have someone with experience otherwise we could just have a repeat of 2004-05.
The key point I'm trying to make is that we pick someone young and persist with them. We might cycle through the likes of the Chari's and Moor's and Kasuza's et al and find that in 4 or 5 years time they only have 15 ODIs under their belt. That's not enough experience to oversee any transition where they would be the nominal senior players. We've made this mistake already with Vitori (19 ODI's in 4 years, albeit as a bowler) when really he should have been groomed to be the new attack leader. And that mistake has bitten us hard with Chatara's injury.
I'm not suggesting that this anointed batsman is an automatic selection in every game; but he should be picked in every squad almost regardless of form (if he averages 18+ in the internationals he plays, keep him - similar to how we persisted with Chibhabha) with the expectation that he'll probably play 1 in 3 matches over the next 5 years. Probably dead rubbers when the series is lost.
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I mentioned this about a year back: that ZIM need to forget about the Hammy's and blood a youngster, any youngster. People are still whining about Hammy's exclusion, when he's averaged a mere 25 over the last 10 innings. For a premier batsman (and he's not, that tag goes to Ervine, Williams, and Chibhaba on recent form) an average of 25 against 2nd string bowling attacks at home is simply not good enough. Hammy has career averages under 25 against top 8 sides, boosted only by a woeful Bangladesh bowling attack's ineptitude - and ineptitude which he can no longer benefit from.
Three players have really held Zimbabwe's progress back similar to how Ashraful held Bangladesh's progress back for years: Hammy, Sibanda, and Chigumbura. Utseya has done the same for the past 1-2 years, but before that Utseya actually brought value to the team despite all his limitations.
Zimbabwe need to bring in a few of talented youngsters (under 22). Its a gamble, but there is no alternative. Bring in a 2-3 batsmen and 2-3 bowlers. Jongwe is the right idea. Wellington is also there. Thats 2. Now bring in 3-4 more. Get Musoko in the side. Bring in Burl. Throw money at Welch and Byrom, or pray they struggle in England and have to come back a la Ervine.
The future core should like this:
Chatara
Cremer
Musoko
Jongwe
Wellington
Three players have really held Zimbabwe's progress back similar to how Ashraful held Bangladesh's progress back for years: Hammy, Sibanda, and Chigumbura. Utseya has done the same for the past 1-2 years, but before that Utseya actually brought value to the team despite all his limitations.
Zimbabwe need to bring in a few of talented youngsters (under 22). Its a gamble, but there is no alternative. Bring in a 2-3 batsmen and 2-3 bowlers. Jongwe is the right idea. Wellington is also there. Thats 2. Now bring in 3-4 more. Get Musoko in the side. Bring in Burl. Throw money at Welch and Byrom, or pray they struggle in England and have to come back a la Ervine.
The future core should like this:
Chatara
Cremer
Musoko
Jongwe
Wellington
Bangladesh cricket fanatic, observer of all others.
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We really need an 'A' team playing in South Africa domestically.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
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We're always rebuilding constantly for years we have had a young inexperienced side and we got pumped all the time, we now have a very experienced side who can all still be around for the WC so I would stick to these guys and deal with it after the WC. Chatara, Mutumbami, Jongwe, Wellington, Chari, Mutombodzi, Madziva are all in and around the squad so the youth is picking up experience so I'm not concerned about the 'handover' I'd rather stick with these guys because I feel we're competitive in just about every game we play and a series win over a top 8 team isn't far away which is what I crave. Batsman don't mature till they're close to 30 anyways so that's pretty much all our guys why would we ditch them now after all these years of pain watching them learn the hard way on the international scene. Fair enough let's see some young bowlers I really wouldn't bother with Mpofu, Mupariwa or even Muzarabani (but if they're playing well it's hard not to pick them) I think we should be looking at Mumba, Musoko, Chimhamiwa etc for fringe quick bowlers that's the one area I believe we're dropping the ball with atm.......
None of our young batsman are averaging even 30 in franchise cricket !!!! They need time to learn their games. If the bowlers in Franchise cricket are not even that great these guys should be dominating them true??
Maybe if we had a young guy who was clearly destined to be great like Welch or Sam Curran around then I'd so ok throw them in but even the highly rated Burl hasn't been able to make the step up from franchise cricket against the likes of Canada or Afghanistan so for now leave them there let them learn ......
None of our young batsman are averaging even 30 in franchise cricket !!!! They need time to learn their games. If the bowlers in Franchise cricket are not even that great these guys should be dominating them true??
Maybe if we had a young guy who was clearly destined to be great like Welch or Sam Curran around then I'd so ok throw them in but even the highly rated Burl hasn't been able to make the step up from franchise cricket against the likes of Canada or Afghanistan so for now leave them there let them learn ......
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I dont think we need to reinvent the wheel so to speak. The formula never really changes. Players need to go through the system and prove their worth. I like this article by Dean du Plesiss
"All these other players went through the system, and I'll speak in particular of the non-white players, such as Henry Olonga, Pommie Mbangwa, Tatenda Taibu, Bernard Pswarayi, Brighton Watambwa, all these guys had a correct system, none of these players that are playing now had a correct system."
du Plessis says the fall of the domestic structure in Zimbabwe has led the game to the brink of collapse. "First of all in the past they played club cricket. For example you had a young Trevor Madondo facing the likes of [Heath] Streak and [Eddo] Brandes at club level," he said. "Then if you did well there it was one step further, you would proceed to the Logan Cup level.
"Bear in mind in those days in one-day cricket when the likes of Madondo were around making their debut, there was no such thing as a bouncer. You were not allowed to bowl short-pitched deliveries. Now you are allowed one per over.
"When Madondo or Dion Ebrahim or Alester Maregwede made their debuts for Mashonaland, or whoever they were playing for that time, suddenly they had to adjust their game plan because guys like Eddo Brandes, who we all know was a very good bowler, and Streak, were able to bombard them with bouncers. But if they still passed the test, they then went one step further. They then represented what was known as the Zimbabwe Board XI. So it was basically like a Zimbabwe A side."
He explains how the system in the past was successful: "The A side in those days used to play against South African provincial sides in the B section of the Supersport Series. Fine it was the B section, but it was a lot more competitive than our Logan Cup. So if the likes of Ebrahim got a hundred or Olonga took five or six wickets, they had still proved themselves like any other cricketer should. Only when they proved themselves at every level, club level, Logan Cup level, then the Board XI, then, and only then, did they play for Zimbabwe. It wasn't just a huge jump.
"For example Johnson Marumisa went to the ICC World Twenty20. Fine he didn't play, but that man had never represented Zimbabwe at any form of international cricket. Yet he was in the Zimbabwe side simply because he was quite impressive at club level. You cannot gauge a player by playing club cricket. He has to go through the system. And that is what every single one of those players I mentioned went through.
"Taibu, we all know what a good cricketer he is, Olonga, well, he was an injury-prone cricketer, but I tell you what, when he was on the park he was special. As was Watambwa, although his work ethics you had to question, his heart wasn't on the game, he had other things on his mind. But he was a seriously talented cricketer, Brighton's talent came naturally, he didn't even have to work on it, and the list is endless."
They are not ready to play yet, and at the end of the day, not only is it Zimbabwe that are not benefiting because they continuously get beaten, but think of the cricketer himself
du Plessis says players are being fast-tracked into the national side, thereby exposing their insufficient development. "At the end of the day it's all well and good, we all want the masses to be playing cricket...well I certainly do because it's the way forward," he said. "As a white man I'm telling you that if there were 11 black men out there on merit I would be very proud to support my team. If there were 11 white men out there I will still be proud to support my team.
"But unfortunately what is happening now is that these guys are being picked for various reasons. They are not ready to play yet, and at the end of the day, not only is it Zimbabwe that are not benefiting because they continuously get beaten, but think of the cricketer himself. You are responsible for destroying his career because he is not ready to play international cricket.
"So he goes out knowing that he has to perform. And he is not going perform because he is not ready yet. You know what damage you are doing to his confidence?"
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I personally side towards the Jaybro line of thinking.
We have persisted with these guys for so long, lets at least enjoy them while the gravy train is riding.
Its like if you have watched a mediocre murder mystery for 2 hours and we switch of the tv before we find who the killer is.
What I do think is the middle ground, is select young players in areas where we are very deficient. There is no real candidate to take Jongwes number 8 spot for instance, so lets just persist with him.
If a few bts are injured, instead of going to the next best (forster,maruma etc) lets then go to the youngsters.
Better yet, lets try and lure the Welchs and the Byroms and the home. That's our ready made next generation.
That will involve treating them well though. What a difference they can make though.
We have persisted with these guys for so long, lets at least enjoy them while the gravy train is riding.
Its like if you have watched a mediocre murder mystery for 2 hours and we switch of the tv before we find who the killer is.
What I do think is the middle ground, is select young players in areas where we are very deficient. There is no real candidate to take Jongwes number 8 spot for instance, so lets just persist with him.
If a few bts are injured, instead of going to the next best (forster,maruma etc) lets then go to the youngsters.
Better yet, lets try and lure the Welchs and the Byroms and the home. That's our ready made next generation.
That will involve treating them well though. What a difference they can make though.
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jaybro wrote: I feel we're competitive in just about every game we play and a series win over a top 8 team isn't far away which is what I crave.
From 2015 onwards, I think Bangladesh should be included in the now "top 9" since at least 2 of the long time members in the "top 8" have slipped to 9th in recent times. Even in Tests, I feel Bangladesh will expand it into a top 9 very soon from the current top 8.
Bangladesh cricket fanatic, observer of all others.
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Kriterion_BD wrote:
jaybro wrote: I feel we're competitive in just about every game we play and a series win over a top 8 team isn't far away which is what I crave.
From 2015 onwards, I think Bangladesh should be included in the now "top 9" since at least 2 of the long time members in the "top 8" have slipped to 9th in recent times. Even in Tests, I feel Bangladesh will expand it into a top 9 very soon from the current top 8.
BD is top 8 😂
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^Well I think its a bit harsh on the Windies and the Paksters as one of those once-illustrious sides will fall out of the top 8 bracket. Hence a new designation of "top 9".
Bangladesh cricket fanatic, observer of all others.
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I have been worrying about the upcoming block obsolescence for a while too.
Four years is a long time in Zim cricket.
I would hope that some of this core still has six years in them.
Also we need to get some players in who are young but there is no point in wholesale changes that just bring forward a complete team handover by a few years to avoid a great handover if you get my drift.
I think Wellington is the right age and stage to be given a shot as the second spinner consistently. I would have him ahead of Nyumbu and shunt Nyumbu to 3rd.
I think Jongwe is worth a go as a potential replacement for Chigs.
If we had one young batsmen then I would leave the others in place.
Richmond I think should stay as keeper in the short form and Regis shouldn't come back so that Richmond can keep getting experience under his belt. Regis can play out his career as a test player.
In one to two years time, you can add another younger player who has shined, say a Gumbie and then do so again after the world cup and suddenly things are not so bad with everyone going out at the same time.
Four years is a long time in Zim cricket.
I would hope that some of this core still has six years in them.
Also we need to get some players in who are young but there is no point in wholesale changes that just bring forward a complete team handover by a few years to avoid a great handover if you get my drift.
I think Wellington is the right age and stage to be given a shot as the second spinner consistently. I would have him ahead of Nyumbu and shunt Nyumbu to 3rd.
I think Jongwe is worth a go as a potential replacement for Chigs.
If we had one young batsmen then I would leave the others in place.
Richmond I think should stay as keeper in the short form and Regis shouldn't come back so that Richmond can keep getting experience under his belt. Regis can play out his career as a test player.
In one to two years time, you can add another younger player who has shined, say a Gumbie and then do so again after the world cup and suddenly things are not so bad with everyone going out at the same time.
The Third Innings
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Jemisi wrote:I think Wellington is the right age and stage to be given a shot as the second spinner consistently. I would have him ahead of Nyumbu and shunt Nyumbu to 3rd.
I think Jongwe is worth a go as a potential replacement for Chigs.
I think Wellington is about to overtake Cremer as well. Early days of course, but with the emergence of Jongwe Cremer's bonus of being a decent bat will not matter as much, Jongwe/Wellington at 8/9 looks decent enough. Of course we mostly play two spinners anyway, be it in Zim or in BD.
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I think
Richmond
Cremer
Jongwe
Wellington
Chatara
could be a decent tail
Richmond
Cremer
Jongwe
Wellington
Chatara
could be a decent tail
The Third Innings
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Besides one cameo when there was like an over left in the innings and he and Mutumbami were just going for boundaries, in the internationals he's played Jongwe has done nothing to suggest he is potentially going to be a good batsman. I'd back Cremer every day of the week with the bat based on what I've seen so far.
As for Wellington, he hasn't really put a foot wrong so far but he hasn't overtaken Nyumbu or Cremer IMO. My thoughts about legspinners in Tests are pretty well established, so if I was picking then for Wellington to play a Test it would be a shoot out between him and Nyumbu. And then there are other factors at play, like Williams also being a SLA capable of bowling a good number of overs. Wellington will get his chance in Tests, but for the immediate future I'd be happy for him to keep honing his skills in limited overs internationals.
As for Wellington, he hasn't really put a foot wrong so far but he hasn't overtaken Nyumbu or Cremer IMO. My thoughts about legspinners in Tests are pretty well established, so if I was picking then for Wellington to play a Test it would be a shoot out between him and Nyumbu. And then there are other factors at play, like Williams also being a SLA capable of bowling a good number of overs. Wellington will get his chance in Tests, but for the immediate future I'd be happy for him to keep honing his skills in limited overs internationals.
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