I wonder why i bother . I find it quite perplexing that many white players hide behind their supposed quotas that have never been put into effect. The player dispute that brought Zim into its doldrums was due to the knocking at the door by the black masses of the once privalged only sport of cricket that many a white man fears. The insecurity of the rebels who were now in the twilight of their careers lead to the destruction of our structures and i blame the lot of them for their misguided actions in their rebellion and its quite funny how after they all fled what sad lives they lead out there in the mother land teachers , plumbers, dustbin men , if they had sucked in their pride they could simply overseen and assisted in the teams transition . Lets not use non existant quotas to hate on talented black players .
Carlisle was better than Matsi. And most of those so-called rubbish white players were the best options we had at the time. Was Masakadza kept out? Taibu? Matsi himself? Olonga? Madondo? Pommie? Nkala? How were the black guys excluded? They played if they showed any talent and/or form. For sure there are some historical issues with white prioritisation and preference, but those black players that were around were picked, and picked mostly on merit until the quota and rebel period.
eugene wrote:It is well documented that Matsi was a quota selection, they (ZC) paid Mark Vermeulen to sit out an ODI so that Matsi could be selected and therefore meet quotas. I am not seeking to debate the pros/cons of quotas but there is no denying the fact that Matsi and Ebrahim were both quota selections.
mmm, wtf were they doing giving MV a paid seat on the bench - his ODI average no better than Matsi's (and you can barely seperate them in tests either). I think the poeple filing that document would have done well to file 'the case of SM replacing MV' in a different category to the "evidence of quotas".
As far as Dion is concerned, well he made the team in 2001 and seemed to do little worse than most openers before him. I mean Trev Gripper gets a spot - and it cannot be for his bowling - in the 'look what you're missing' 11 picked in cricinfo (hhm's link), yet as opener has an average as bad as Dion's.
I like bats in the Carlisle mould (ordinary, but tough) ... and SC was ordinary ... of course, a ton vs australia is something he can bring to every dinner!
gargamel wrote:I wonder why i bother . I find it quite perplexing that many white players hide behind their supposed quotas that have never been put into effect. The player dispute that brought Zim into its doldrums was due to the knocking at the door by the black masses of the once privalged only sport of cricket that many a white man fears. The insecurity of the rebels who were now in the twilight of their careers lead to the destruction of our structures and i blame the lot of them for their misguided actions in their rebellion and its quite funny how after they all fled what sad lives they lead out there in the mother land teachers , plumbers, dustbin men , if they had sucked in their pride they could simply overseen and assisted in the teams transition . Lets not use non existant quotas to hate on talented black players .
Non-existent quotas?! I think you are rewriting history there. ZC had a very public quota system that everyone knew about. Before the rebel-saga there was a 7-4 quota which was meant to be followed. Remember any number of black players left as well so it wasn't just a simple matter of white players not wanting to give up their piece of the pie.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
gargamel wrote: Before the rebel-saga there was a 7-4 quota which was meant to be followed.
When did quotas start? in 2001, when ebrahim opened with AC, he was one of 3 non-white players
The quotas started around 2000/2001, although the 7-4 number came along later.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
Jemisi wrote:Carlisle was better than Matsi. And most of those so-called rubbish white players were the best options we had at the time. Was Masakadza kept out? Taibu? Matsi himself? Olonga? Madondo? Pommie? Nkala? How were the black guys excluded? They played if they showed any talent and/or form. For sure there are some historical issues with white prioritisation and preference, but those black players that were around were picked, and picked mostly on merit until the quota and rebel period.
The black players that you mentioned were not fully given a go when they begun , players like Pommie ,Trevor, Syke were not given extended runs in the team to establish themselves into the national setup. Guys like Carlise , Viljoen, Wishart were given extended runs in the team but really did not perform and its just plain rascims. I ask u trully and honestly whether you dont see rascsim prevail in our local cricket from grass roots up to the national team. I was part of the sides that trained tirelessly to get seleceted only for some young great white hope came along to play . The thing that riles me the most is that ZC invests so much in these boys who eventually use ZC as as a step ladder to other things and not for the national team then they moan about quotas all i ask is stay and fight for your place you believe belongs to you
Its denialismm to pretend institutionalied racism did not exist in Zimbabwe cricket before 2001. You may as well be white and involved in the the Springboks or rugby in SA, to believe the same does not exist. The quotas introduced were as a result of the hamfisted approach to intergration those in control of cricket had.
Andy Flower himself, who admits he wasn't averse to as little segration, well until his adult life is also accused by Henry Olonga. A fellow player called Mluleki Nkala "charcoal black", which, while it may have been said all in good fun, should have been immediately retracted once someone took offence, if one does chose to take offence. Instead, the whole team ganged up on Henry Olonga.
Without wading too deep into this argument, all of which I'm well out of my depth anyway, I always recommend to any one looking for an unbiased and impartial approach into the roots of that rebel walkout to read this article by the British journalist, Tom De Castella:
The meeting that killed cricket in Zimbabwe took place on 11 March 2004. Three of the selectors were present - Max Ebrahim, Ali Shah and the former Australia batsman Geoff Marsh - as well as captain Heath Streak and Vince Hogg, managing director of the Zimbabwe Cricket Union
The selectors argued that the team had been chosen on merit. 'Gentlemen you will reselect that side,' Bvute persisted.
Lovemore Banda, the team's media manager, then addressed the meeting. He said that black people were unhappy that the wider political changes in Zimbabwe were not reflected in team selection. 'Look at the farms. We got independence in 1980 and in 2000 people grew tired of waiting and took the land. If there is no change in cricket then people will give up waiting and take cricket as well.'
Later, back in his office, Brown and I discussed the turbulent past nine months in Zimbabwe cricket. 'I think the rebels shot themselves in the foot,' he said of the absent white players. 'They put 10 points on the table and got nine and a half of what they wanted. The only thing ZCU wouldn't do is get rid of Max Ebrahim or Ozias Bvute.'
Obviously this are excerptions from the article. One would do well to read the whole article himself!!
Jemisi wrote:Carlisle was better than Matsi. And most of those so-called rubbish white players were the best options we had at the time. Was Masakadza kept out? Taibu? Matsi himself? Olonga? Madondo? Pommie? Nkala? How were the black guys excluded? They played if they showed any talent and/or form. For sure there are some historical issues with white prioritisation and preference, but those black players that were around were picked, and picked mostly on merit until the quota and rebel period.
The black players that you mentioned were not fully given a go when they begun , players like Pommie ,Trevor, Syke were not given extended runs in the team to establish themselves into the national setup. Guys like Carlise , Viljoen, Wishart were given extended runs in the team but really did not perform and its just plain rascims. I ask u trully and honestly whether you dont see rascsim prevail in our local cricket from grass roots up to the national team. I was part of the sides that trained tirelessly to get seleceted only for some young great white hope came along to play . The thing that riles me the most is that ZC invests so much in these boys who eventually use ZC as as a step ladder to other things and not for the national team then they moan about quotas all i ask is stay and fight for your place you believe belongs to you
I'm not saying there wasn't/isn't racism. In both directions there certainly has been. But that is a different question to suggesting that the black players didn't get a chance. In Trevor's case he was loudly proclaimed and often picked until he tragically died. Nkala was given an extended run, look at how many games he played. Pommie too, with limited success in ODIs and decent test efforts, he too played lots of pre-quota and pre-rebel cricket for Zim.
The trouble with Zim selection during the period was that everyone bar a small core was in and out of the side because they were not good enough to secure a place in international cricket. So you can play a racism card on almost every subjective selectorial call that goes against a black player ( or white, or asian) if you like. But those who performed well enough were consistently rewarded with selection pre-quotas - Olonga, Pommie, Madondo, Taibu, Nkala, as I said.
I'd like to know which players were excluded so Wishart, Carlisle, Rennie, Strang, etc, could play? Where were the guys who were excellent and clearly better than these guys but were not picked for Zim because they were black? That is a different question to the one asking - "Has there been racism in cricket in Zim?" To which of course the answer is yes.