I know this is for ZC only but I wanted other people opinion on the shambolic performance of South Africa.
Apparently they now have to field 7 players of colour in the side, with three being black African.
Ngidi, Bavuma and Rabada are all there, yet both the Hendricks make the sides. Two of the most over rated cricketers and blatant quota selections ever.
You have Jannaman Malan and Kyle Verryene in the squad who can’t get a game, yet they have to select inferior players based on race.
I actually think this might be the end of a competitive South Africa cricket team. I don’t see how they can compete when they play cricketers like Hendricks and, because of politics, have to ignore guys like Coetzee, Muelder and Malan.
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Those three are absolutely good enough, all of them damned fine talents. Especially Muyeye. That sounds stupid when you see how well Wes has done, but Muyeye has the ability to be next level.
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TapsC2 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:13 pm
Googly wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:21 am
There are two keys to creating successful black cricket organisations.
The first one is competent administration. Once a guy is in office he expends most of his energy and the organisation's resources into ensuring he's there to stay. Whites do it, but the black guys are grand masters. Transparency goes out the window and election season is a non event, it's taken care of way beforehand. With millions flowing in annually the temptation is too great. Get rid of the opposition and make sure people can't check up on you, and if they can, make sure you own them. People let them do it, that's the problem. They come in as saviours and the new guardians but as sure as the sun rises tomorrow they become opportunists.
The second key is the enigma of producing world class black batsmen. West Indies produce more than their fair share so why not SA and Zim? With quality black batters CSA and ZC wouldn't have to keep dangling packages for the Fafs, the AB's, the BT's of this world and transformation would be a piece of old tackie.
I have the answer and will gladly share it because its so hard to do. With very few exceptions (there are always exceptions), if you ask a quality batter to tell you their story its invariably the same-
They come from a cricketing background. They ideally should be around like minded kids/brothers playing competitive playground stuff.
Someone has thrown them endless balls from a very young age 3,4,5,6 days a week for years and years. The coach has to be as driven as the kid.
They have a really good junior coach.
They have had a serious support network of a relative/s that provides, fetches and carries, provides emotional support.
The kid has a driving goal to be a pro and to succeed and to be like someone he profoundly admires. He must want to be somebody and to daydream AND be prepared to put in the hard yards. Anyone can fantasize- its not enough.
They MUST play competitive cricket. As a junior this means playing up 1,2 or 3 years.
They need to play 20-30 games a year. 10 is not enough.
They need to be mentally tough, talent only gets you so far.
If they're not banging hundreds at school they're in long shot territory of being really good.
Once they're about to crack men's level someone has to believe in them and open that final door.
Throw in a dash of luck to fire when it counts because when you're at elite level you're competing for the big prize and you're now with the last 4 freaks who are as determined and capable as you. You're batting for your life and the 10-15 years of sacrifice you and your network have put in and you need f***ing balls of steel, cricket might be the most unforgiving sport of all and you don't get many chances...except in Zimbabwe and South Africa 😂
This is the patented formula and you need the talent to begin with, otherwise practice your bowling and bat in the middle. 😂
This is why Muyeye is the ultimate prize. The poster boy. I’m surprised they haven’t done everything in their power to bring him in. I completely get what you are saying but I think Myers, Muyeye and Madhevere might change that black batsman narrative sooner than you think. Those kids have what it takes. I don’t know how but they certainly do.
The problem is that ZC is showing that you can survive and not get kicked out if you tick certain boxes. SA has enough competitive schools cricket to produce a couple of players a year and the reality is that’s all you need.
One big reason for Zimbabwe’s decline besides the obvious reasons is that we went on a 6 year period where we didn’t produce any decent cricketers. Think about the generation just below Jarvis all the way up to the Burl/Musakanda generation. 5 years of nothing. Only Chatara is a regular. The PJs and Kasuzas failed to cement their places in the team. It affected us big time. Only Mire getting a century
I think Zim bled heavily during these 5 years cause I played with boys from those five years and many of them are playing for other countries or in other countries.
Eg curran, Curran, Byrom, jongwe was badly managed, Welsh, snater , Ryan higgins, maybe Murray. That's half a team right there.
Angus Curtis chose rugby.
The ones that have played for Zim - Moore, burl, kamukamwe, mavuta, blessing, Ainsley ndlovu.
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Zimco wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:28 pm
sam_ahm wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:45 am
I agree, South African cricket will collapse quickly by the looks of it. The fact that earlier Hashim, Tahir, Duminy who were in the team on merit and also contributed to the Quota numbers is also gone now. Apart from Rabada I don't see any other colored player 100% deserves his place in the side.
Ngidi isn't bad
Ngidi is a good bowler, he's a wicket taker for sure. It perplexes me a bit because his go to ball in the death overs are innocuous looking off cutters that just keep getting wickets.
He was given the best opportunities at private schools by folk trying to make things right (Hilton in fact), as was Rabada and Bavuma, yet they're right behind the calls for quota. They don't like the very working system that brought them fame and fortune 😂 I'd be mighty aggrieved if I was the dumb schmuck that organised those scholarships, have a tiny bit of gratitude. 😂
No doubt plenty of hardship and some prejudice along the way. If you want to see real prejudice these days spend a week in our shoes. 😂
There's no olive branch being accepted, they want the whole tree.
Myers -St George's Head Boy
Madhevere- St Charles Joburgh.
Muyeye- Peter House and Eastbourne UK.
Byrom- St John's and Kings College
Welch - St John's and Whitgift
Curran - St George's and Wellington College.
There's an obvious common thread here. Elite top of the range schools.
If I saw names from Dzivaresekwa 4, Muzarabani High with its adjacent Academy and Isivavane Secondary I'd say f#% it, burn the house down.
Curtis still had the option of swapping over. Multiple concussions and a knee reconstruction at the tender age of 22. Only a miracle will see him have a long rugby career, he's too small anyway, as brilliant and tough as he is he's going to get stuck in someone's spokes again.
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Zim didn't bleed, those guys wouldn't have been picked, pure and simple. They also wouldn't have been as good as they are now either. Cricket in the UK and in other member nations is played at a completely different level to here.
You have to raise your game pronto or you're done.
If Curran had stayed here I'd almost guarantee he'd be in Moor's or Burl's position. In and out and not quite cementing his position. He'd most definitely not be opening the bowling even for a franchise side. He'd have been first change and batting at 4 for Rocks. He'd be recognised here for his batting and not his bowling. Thats the difference between the two systems. One promotes race and the other promotes cricket. Welch made an astonishing start at Eagles and was overlooked the next season. He played franchise cricket well at 15/16 but couldn't make the u19 side 😂
The system is broken.
You have to raise your game pronto or you're done.
If Curran had stayed here I'd almost guarantee he'd be in Moor's or Burl's position. In and out and not quite cementing his position. He'd most definitely not be opening the bowling even for a franchise side. He'd have been first change and batting at 4 for Rocks. He'd be recognised here for his batting and not his bowling. Thats the difference between the two systems. One promotes race and the other promotes cricket. Welch made an astonishing start at Eagles and was overlooked the next season. He played franchise cricket well at 15/16 but couldn't make the u19 side 😂
The system is broken.
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Ask Monte Lynch the West Indian who coached Rocks for a while. He refused to endorse the agenda and had to leave as he was threatened and took it seriously, he still spits blood if you mention his time here.
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Sure Curran etc wouldn't probably have been as good but they were amongst the very best at the age group level and some of them would have played for zim.
Blessing came from somewhere rural? In Africa, school cricket is the only option at a young age.
Whereas district cricket is another avenue to the school pathway in new Zealand, Australia , UK (club) and you don't need as much money to play district, it's still expensive though.
Churchill and PE are pretty elite sporting schools and they allow the best black sporting talent to compete with these private schools at the school level. Does ZC fund these schools?
All these players like Curran and Byrom also had to have a connection/help to get to the the next level. As good as the Curran's having an 'in' helps to get to the next level.
Blessing came from somewhere rural? In Africa, school cricket is the only option at a young age.
Whereas district cricket is another avenue to the school pathway in new Zealand, Australia , UK (club) and you don't need as much money to play district, it's still expensive though.
Churchill and PE are pretty elite sporting schools and they allow the best black sporting talent to compete with these private schools at the school level. Does ZC fund these schools?
All these players like Curran and Byrom also had to have a connection/help to get to the the next level. As good as the Curran's having an 'in' helps to get to the next level.
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Zimbabwe school cricket was a good starting block ten years ago for Curran etc. It was good quality hard ball cricket with some good coaches and ZC funded tours to South Africa. In the UK they are still playing with plastic balls in training at that age :D
Not everything in the systems in Africa is worse, some parts are actually better. Zc still does some good/clever things
Not everything in the systems in Africa is worse, some parts are actually better. Zc still does some good/clever things
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During Curran's time ZC had all but given up SA tours for U14, parents clubbed together because they realised they had some very special boys and raised money themselves to tour and to bring SA sides to Zim.
They needed the blessing of ZC and raised money for black youngsters in the side, not a jot of help from ZC. In fact the two guys allocated to them helped themselves to cash and the entire brilliant concept ground to a halt because their SA counterparts refused to have anything further to do with them 😂
They needed the blessing of ZC and raised money for black youngsters in the side, not a jot of help from ZC. In fact the two guys allocated to them helped themselves to cash and the entire brilliant concept ground to a halt because their SA counterparts refused to have anything further to do with them 😂
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Churchill i don't think even has a cricket pitch and the ZC scholarship thing to the school is finished. PE cricket has gone down the shitter as well. They need to resurrect it pronto.
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The same connections that helped Byrom and Co also helped Huchu and Muyeye get placed overseas to help rock solid talented boys.
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Did the parents pay for shepherd makanuras wages? Did they run and pay all the costs of the provincial tournaments in Triangle, Zimbabwe and at Prince Edward? Sure the parents contributed to the South Africa tour costs to an extent. All that would have cost way more in other countries.
The parents could access FC players like Waller and some other black player whose name I forget ( I don't like to talk in colour) for a pittance of what it cost in other countries to train their kids. These coaches used ZC balls to train these kids.
Shepherd makanura threw balls to these players and there were a lot good people at ZC who were working for the betterment of cricket. I don't know the current situation, so I trust you that it is not as it was.
Admittedly I was a few years before Sam. I doubt Angus Curtis could just pick up a cricket bat now and play high level cricket.
The parents could access FC players like Waller and some other black player whose name I forget ( I don't like to talk in colour) for a pittance of what it cost in other countries to train their kids. These coaches used ZC balls to train these kids.
Shepherd makanura threw balls to these players and there were a lot good people at ZC who were working for the betterment of cricket. I don't know the current situation, so I trust you that it is not as it was.
Admittedly I was a few years before Sam. I doubt Angus Curtis could just pick up a cricket bat now and play high level cricket.
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Googly wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:31 pm
The same connections that helped Byrom and Co also helped Huchu and Muyeye get placed overseas to help rock solid talented boys.
That's great to hear.
Do you think Sam would have played for Zim if Kevin hadn't died like this article suggests? I didn't know Kevin was the head of the Zim Cricket Academy at the time of his death.https://southerntimesafrica.com/site/ne ... cket-today
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Zimco wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:41 pm
Did the parents pay for shepherd makanuras wages? Did they run and pay all the costs of the provincial tournaments in Triangle, Zimbabwe and at Prince Edward? Sure the parents contributed to the South Africa tour costs to an extent. All that would have cost way more in other countries.
The parents could access FC players like Waller and some other black player whose name I forget ( I don't like to talk in colour) for a pittance of what it cost in other countries to train their kids. These coaches used ZC balls to train these kids.
Shepherd makanura threw balls to these players and there were a lot good people at ZC who were working for the betterment of cricket. I don't know the current situation, so I trust you that it is not as it was.
Admittedly I was a few years before Sam. I doubt Angus Curtis could just pick up a cricket bat now and play high level cricket.
I'm just saying that there were two years where parents funded one particular group of boys, no more no less. Theres no suggestion that they ran ZC 😂
They were called Zim Pups in fact. You can probably Google it.
On most other occasions parents were asked to assist and they did.
I'm not knocking Shepherd at all, good guy, knows his stuff.
Shortly after this period ZC funding of age group tours resumed.
I just read that article, his best year was in Form 1, he plundered hundreds, but at age group level on tour he generally didn't do as well as Curtis or Welch, nor did he take as many wickets as Murwendo or Matigimu.
He was a destroyer of loose bowling, amazing to watch, but if it was tight, Curtis and Welch usually fared better, they were very disciplined.
Curran led the way though at junior school, he had complete self belief and just went at it and the good thing to watch was boys like Curtis, Welch, Byrom, Murray etc raise their games immediately. Thats what happens when there's a uniquely talented set of boys around. Zim won't see an age group like that again. They were ridiculous.
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I ponder that often- whether Sam and Ben would have stayed if KC was still with us. And if Tom would have joined them.
KC had very strong connections in county cricket. Mum lived in UK as they were separated. I would think that he'd have sent his boys over.
He'd already sent Tom to SA and when Surrey took a liking to him after seeing him in Cape Town he was on his way.
The question remains- would KC have made enough of a difference to Zim cricket to make it more enticing for his sons to stay? We will never know the answer to that.
He had a great relationship with his boys, they fought like cat and dog, but they were tight.
Everyone just thinks- send your boys 8000km away to play sport, but thats a monumental decision for a parent, especially if there's a tight bond.
I think everyone knew Sam had an amazing skill set and KC would like to have seen how far he could go. I'm sure his lads have exceeded his wildest expectations, he'd have been impossible to deal with after a few beers 😂
As amazing as Sam is, I cant help feeling he has unfulfilled batting potential. Hes come up a bit short in the batting dept for how talented he is. He may yet really blossom, but I always felt he was Buttleresque and yet he hasn't reached those heights...yet. Years of batting down the order at Surrey I believe has stifled his extraordinary ability with the willow.
KC had very strong connections in county cricket. Mum lived in UK as they were separated. I would think that he'd have sent his boys over.
He'd already sent Tom to SA and when Surrey took a liking to him after seeing him in Cape Town he was on his way.
The question remains- would KC have made enough of a difference to Zim cricket to make it more enticing for his sons to stay? We will never know the answer to that.
He had a great relationship with his boys, they fought like cat and dog, but they were tight.
Everyone just thinks- send your boys 8000km away to play sport, but thats a monumental decision for a parent, especially if there's a tight bond.
I think everyone knew Sam had an amazing skill set and KC would like to have seen how far he could go. I'm sure his lads have exceeded his wildest expectations, he'd have been impossible to deal with after a few beers 😂
As amazing as Sam is, I cant help feeling he has unfulfilled batting potential. Hes come up a bit short in the batting dept for how talented he is. He may yet really blossom, but I always felt he was Buttleresque and yet he hasn't reached those heights...yet. Years of batting down the order at Surrey I believe has stifled his extraordinary ability with the willow.
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The main reason why racial transformation is not working in Southern Africa is that Cricket is not that popular amongst the targeted populations. Yes it’s a sport people watch with some interest but actually playing it is different. That is where the issue is.
In private schools for example cricket and basketball are played at the same time. You can guess which sport is picked by the average black kid. The key is converting some of these kids from other sports to play cricket. This is why you are not getting bowlers who can hit the 140kph mark for example. They are either involved in athletics or basketball.
When you are 15 years old you don’t even realize that cricket might be the easiest way to a financially rewarding sporting career if you are a talented sports player. The likes of Musakanda were good in other sports too but probably only started focusing on cricket much later.
Quotas just won’t work in that situation. For example in SA 90% of the population might be black but only 5% of them might have a genuine interest in playing cricket. That then means only 4.5% of that population is interested yet half of the remaining 10% might be interested. In the end you will find you will have an equal number of people from both sides interested and not this majority being denied opportunities to play like they suggest. The first step is building genuine national interest.
In private schools for example cricket and basketball are played at the same time. You can guess which sport is picked by the average black kid. The key is converting some of these kids from other sports to play cricket. This is why you are not getting bowlers who can hit the 140kph mark for example. They are either involved in athletics or basketball.
When you are 15 years old you don’t even realize that cricket might be the easiest way to a financially rewarding sporting career if you are a talented sports player. The likes of Musakanda were good in other sports too but probably only started focusing on cricket much later.
Quotas just won’t work in that situation. For example in SA 90% of the population might be black but only 5% of them might have a genuine interest in playing cricket. That then means only 4.5% of that population is interested yet half of the remaining 10% might be interested. In the end you will find you will have an equal number of people from both sides interested and not this majority being denied opportunities to play like they suggest. The first step is building genuine national interest.
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I disagree entirely.
There has always been huge national interest in SA, but amongst the whites predominantly. There have always been more than enough phenomenal players going around to fill 10 franchises if you wanted. They've nearly always produced the fastest bowlers going around and the best batsmen.
Now along comes a group of people that are hell bent on converting a largely disinterested population of 45 million people 😂 To what end? South Africa couldn't get much better, they were top of the pile. What exactly are people missing out on? Why do you need to persuade disinterested people that they're missing out on a good thing. If I had someone pitch up at my doorstep bouncing a football saying "kick it, kick it, you'll like it, you'll see!" He'd get the same short shift i reserve for Jehova's Witnesses.
The only agenda I see is to rile up an easily riled population by convincing them theyre missing out and being disenfranchised by evil people.
If this drive hadn't taken place you'd have 40 million people wondering what these morons were doing playing this very strange game with mind boggling rules all dressed in white with a ball that can kill you. There's only one reason to do that and that's to get control and get your mitts on the moolah. I question the motive all day.
Why do you want to wean millions of people off basketball, athletics and football and convince them that they're missing out? What about the basketball, soccer and athletics fraternity, they're possibly being prejudiced of world class players? Why not push soccer with everything you've got, that's where the real money is. Professional cricket in South Africa has room for 200 people absolute max. Tune into a test match or a 4 day game in South Africa and see how much black folk have taken to cricket 😂
There will never be the facilities or the opportunities for that number of people. Its a sport that costs a lot of money, takes up space and 99% of schools will never ever have the facilities or the coaches to play.
There has always been huge national interest in SA, but amongst the whites predominantly. There have always been more than enough phenomenal players going around to fill 10 franchises if you wanted. They've nearly always produced the fastest bowlers going around and the best batsmen.
Now along comes a group of people that are hell bent on converting a largely disinterested population of 45 million people 😂 To what end? South Africa couldn't get much better, they were top of the pile. What exactly are people missing out on? Why do you need to persuade disinterested people that they're missing out on a good thing. If I had someone pitch up at my doorstep bouncing a football saying "kick it, kick it, you'll like it, you'll see!" He'd get the same short shift i reserve for Jehova's Witnesses.
The only agenda I see is to rile up an easily riled population by convincing them theyre missing out and being disenfranchised by evil people.
If this drive hadn't taken place you'd have 40 million people wondering what these morons were doing playing this very strange game with mind boggling rules all dressed in white with a ball that can kill you. There's only one reason to do that and that's to get control and get your mitts on the moolah. I question the motive all day.
Why do you want to wean millions of people off basketball, athletics and football and convince them that they're missing out? What about the basketball, soccer and athletics fraternity, they're possibly being prejudiced of world class players? Why not push soccer with everything you've got, that's where the real money is. Professional cricket in South Africa has room for 200 people absolute max. Tune into a test match or a 4 day game in South Africa and see how much black folk have taken to cricket 😂
There will never be the facilities or the opportunities for that number of people. Its a sport that costs a lot of money, takes up space and 99% of schools will never ever have the facilities or the coaches to play.
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I really don't see why the ICC, IOC, IRB, etc allow teams from South Africa to be selected on racial grounds.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
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So a part motive in SA is to ensure 180 of the 200 professionals are not white to disenfranchise and disillusion a chunk of white folk (more than half the whites don't like cricket either 😂 , its an acquired taste). People can argue all day that its to level the playing field, but the facts say different. If you only let 4 whites play for now and further reduce it later they'll stop practicing and playing a sport they're officially not allowed to. Nobody is going to voluntarily practice a game they're not allowed to play 😂
CSA are saying loud and clear- you're not allowed to play!!
ICC are looking to expand the gospel of cricket. The world should acknowledge the insurmountable racial problems that divide our nations.
Here's a way of ending all the problems- Why can't they allow a second South African side to be a full member? Call it the Blesboks 😂 Give them 1/20th the funding they give CSA. They'd probably be the strongest team in the world and you'd have an extra half a million people practicing and enjoying like their lives depended on it.
They could do the same for Zim- call them the Outcasts 😂
They would be a force as well.
If there's no agenda, what would be the problem?
CSA are saying loud and clear- you're not allowed to play!!
ICC are looking to expand the gospel of cricket. The world should acknowledge the insurmountable racial problems that divide our nations.
Here's a way of ending all the problems- Why can't they allow a second South African side to be a full member? Call it the Blesboks 😂 Give them 1/20th the funding they give CSA. They'd probably be the strongest team in the world and you'd have an extra half a million people practicing and enjoying like their lives depended on it.
They could do the same for Zim- call them the Outcasts 😂
They would be a force as well.
If there's no agenda, what would be the problem?
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South Africa could be the best side in the world, period. They have such talent yet they can’t get them in the side
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Maybe SOuth Africa should field two sides. a white and a black side
Obviously this would never happen
Obviously this would never happen
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