I know this is for ZC only but I wanted other people opinion on the shambolic performance of South Africa.
Apparently they now have to field 7 players of colour in the side, with three being black African.
Ngidi, Bavuma and Rabada are all there, yet both the Hendricks make the sides. Two of the most over rated cricketers and blatant quota selections ever.
You have Jannaman Malan and Kyle Verryene in the squad who can’t get a game, yet they have to select inferior players based on race.
I actually think this might be the end of a competitive South Africa cricket team. I don’t see how they can compete when they play cricketers like Hendricks and, because of politics, have to ignore guys like Coetzee, Muelder and Malan.
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TapsC2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:03 pm
Googly wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:43 pm
Not u Taps 😂 , I meant anyone that thinks this quota bullshit is OK. Makes my blood boil.
I definitely don't think quotas are the way to do it and it's not a problem that can be fixed overnight. It's about to reach a boiling point I think. They will not budge so they have put the pressure on QDK. Is he willing to sacrifice his international career over this? Will others walk away with him? I highly doubt it. A lot of lessons were learnt from the Zim walkout and I doubt we will ever see one like that again. I don't think the SA players are as united as the 04 zim crew.
I found it interesting that Pommie didn't sound too pleased as well. The most interesting thing is that QDK seems to have a lot of Indian sympathisers 😂
India also has a quota system of sorts, not sport wise, but politically and job wise which I see some Indian people complaining about. Also Indians love de kock cause of ipl.
It is possible Namibia could be the strongest Team in Africa in a few years.
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TapsC2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:03 pm
Googly wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:43 pm
Not u Taps 😂 , I meant anyone that thinks this quota bullshit is OK. Makes my blood boil.
I definitely don't think quotas are the way to do it and it's not a problem that can be fixed overnight. It's about to reach a boiling point I think. They will not budge so they have put the pressure on QDK. Is he willing to sacrifice his international career over this? Will others walk away with him? I highly doubt it. A lot of lessons were learnt from the Zim walkout and I doubt we will ever see one like that again. I don't think the SA players are as united as the 04 zim crew.
I found it interesting that Pommie didn't sound too pleased as well. The most interesting thing is that QDK seems to have a lot of Indian sympathisers 😂
Was Pommie supportive of him or anti his stance?
What do you think needs to be fixed as a matter of interest?
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There's definitely no unity amongst whites. The one lesson that has been learned well is divide and rule. Every man for himself.
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What bothers me is why didn't CSA sort this out before the world cup. If Quentin has done this before then why didn't they talk to him before. If there stance is like this then why did he go on tour. It's just poor administration and politics is so entwined in SA cricket.
Secondly, there is some anti white sentiment in South Africa. Once someone tried to rob me and said give me your wallet white motherfucker or Ill shoot you. That's not to say that black people dont get robbed or that the person that tried to rob me probably was drsperate. A black farmer from Zim told me he was robbed in SA and he had to empty everything or he was derobed.
Secondly, there is some anti white sentiment in South Africa. Once someone tried to rob me and said give me your wallet white motherfucker or Ill shoot you. That's not to say that black people dont get robbed or that the person that tried to rob me probably was drsperate. A black farmer from Zim told me he was robbed in SA and he had to empty everything or he was derobed.
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So aside from the actual disorganisation of CSA (if they’re wanted to implement this, surely do it before the tournament - not a few hours before your 2nd match), and aside from the very real issues of race and all the stuff mentioned by Googly (a classic 5-post Googly chain!) , my feeling on this is just.......
Just take the knee? Seriously who cares at this point. It’s not some groundbreaking gesture anymore. Does anyone watching these games actually care who is taking the knee or why? 1 ball into the 1st innings, does anyone remember? If de kock did take the knee today - would anyone have even noticed?
Surely if you are a professional sportsperson and this is your livelihood and also it’s a World Cup and you are passionate about representing your country and appearing to be supportive of and united with your team mates (most of whom are white) - you’d go with your head and just do it? For an easy life and to continue your career and to avoid the haranguing and judgement he is going to get from Indian pundits and U.K./Aussie media who have no idea.
Idk. I mean whilst I think taking the knee is completely meaningless and pointless, that’s also why I think it’s fine to do it. Because it is meaningless. So go for an easy ride and support your team mates in a crucial match, and dont f**k up your career for something pointless.
Taking a stand against it is as pointless and meaningless as mandating it in the first place tbh.
Just take the knee? Seriously who cares at this point. It’s not some groundbreaking gesture anymore. Does anyone watching these games actually care who is taking the knee or why? 1 ball into the 1st innings, does anyone remember? If de kock did take the knee today - would anyone have even noticed?
Surely if you are a professional sportsperson and this is your livelihood and also it’s a World Cup and you are passionate about representing your country and appearing to be supportive of and united with your team mates (most of whom are white) - you’d go with your head and just do it? For an easy life and to continue your career and to avoid the haranguing and judgement he is going to get from Indian pundits and U.K./Aussie media who have no idea.
Idk. I mean whilst I think taking the knee is completely meaningless and pointless, that’s also why I think it’s fine to do it. Because it is meaningless. So go for an easy ride and support your team mates in a crucial match, and dont f**k up your career for something pointless.
Taking a stand against it is as pointless and meaningless as mandating it in the first place tbh.
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Googly wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:24 pm
TapsC2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:03 pm
Googly wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:43 pm
Not u Taps 😂 , I meant anyone that thinks this quota bullshit is OK. Makes my blood boil.
I definitely don't think quotas are the way to do it and it's not a problem that can be fixed overnight. It's about to reach a boiling point I think. They will not budge so they have put the pressure on QDK. Is he willing to sacrifice his international career over this? Will others walk away with him? I highly doubt it. A lot of lessons were learnt from the Zim walkout and I doubt we will ever see one like that again. I don't think the SA players are as united as the 04 zim crew.
I found it interesting that Pommie didn't sound too pleased as well. The most interesting thing is that QDK seems to have a lot of Indian sympathisers 😂
Was Pommie supportive of him or anti his stance?
What do you think needs to be fixed as a matter of interest?
Pommie basically said that if you don't take the knee then you not supporting your teammates of colour. Strong words.
To me you obliviously have to be biased somewhere but not quotas. I think the best way to achieve it is to invest big on maybe 5 schools which have black kids as the majority and put international standard facilities and qualified coaches. You can't afford to do it all over the country. In Zim's situation go to Prince Edward, Churchill and a couple of other schools and really invest in them. Send any promising underprivileged kid there. Get these schools competing with the already existing elite schools and after maybe 10 years you will naturally see black talent (especially batsmen) coming through.
Quotas don't solve the real issue. The real issue is that cricket like golf and tennis needs thousands of hours of practice which in the current environment in SA and Zim need lots of support from the parents. You need to create an environment where a naturally talented kid can get the thousands of hours of support needed. Black parents don't value sports and thats the truth.
It's not a coincidence for me that Myers went to an elite school. Wes was on a cricket scholarship in SA, Muyeye went from an elite school to a cricket scholarship in the UK. Marumani was on a scholarship at Falcon, an elite school.
Shumba was on a scholarship at Churchill I think which does not have ideal cricket facilities anymore but is still better than 99% of government school in that department. He might be the only exception. He did however play a lot of club cricket in the UK in 2019 before that World Cup.
The numbers for me show that the key is in building strong junior institutions which have a bias towards black kids. Not 100 institutions in random rural areas. Build just 5 institutions in schools which already have a culture of playing sports. It will cost a lot of money but after 10 years you will be producing a decent player or 2 every year who deserve to be in the national setup
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What I really want to see is how the British and Australians and New Zealanders see this. I will tell you a lot of them don't like white South Africans and think they are a racist lot. This won't help that stereotype
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^ I think it is futile trying to compare Zimbabwe with SA on almost anything but especially race. It is completely different. 20k whites (and ageing, so will decline further...) in Zim is a different story altogether compared to over 4 million in SA. We've also, I think, had our absolute nadir with race relations and have largely found a way to get on with life. I fear SA hasn't yet reached their anti-white nadir. So again, pretty futile comparing it.
Your general point of investing in a set number of quality schools with cricketing heritage (colour is irrelevant on this subject...) in Zim over random concrete nets in the dessert villages though is absolutely right and has been repeated by many on here over many years!
Your general point of investing in a set number of quality schools with cricketing heritage (colour is irrelevant on this subject...) in Zim over random concrete nets in the dessert villages though is absolutely right and has been repeated by many on here over many years!
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secretzimbo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:49 pm
So aside from the actual disorganisation of CSA (if they’re wanted to implement this, surely do it before the tournament - not a few hours before your 2nd match), and aside from the very real issues of race and all the stuff mentioned by Googly (a classic 5-post Googly chain!) , my feeling on this is just.......
Just take the knee? Seriously who cares at this point. It’s not some groundbreaking gesture anymore. Does anyone watching these games actually care who is taking the knee or why? 1 ball into the 1st innings, does anyone remember? If de kock did take the knee today - would anyone have even noticed?
Surely if you are a professional sportsperson and this is your livelihood and also it’s a World Cup and you are passionate about representing your country and appearing to be supportive of and united with your team mates (most of whom are white) - you’d go with your head and just do it? For an easy life and to continue your career and to avoid the haranguing and judgement he is going to get from Indian pundits and U.K./Aussie media who have no idea.
Idk. I mean whilst I think taking the knee is completely meaningless and pointless, that’s also why I think it’s fine to do it. Because it is meaningless. So go for an easy ride and support your team mates in a crucial match, and dont f**k up your career for something pointless.
Taking a stand against it is as pointless and meaningless as mandating it in the first place tbh.
Thing is there is probably a lot of other things going on de kock doesn't agree with like AB and Faf not being selected. Probably the straw that broke the camels back. He would be able to make enough money paying T20 anyway. It's not like he needs to play for south Africa.
Another problem is it's the black lives matter not the all lives matter when there is racism against white/Indian/chinese people etc. Also that it was an American thing from a while ago. America is its own country with its own specific issues
Non black minorities in South Africa also face discrimination so the black lives matter thing is a bit controversial or hard to place in South Africa. It's harder for CSA to argue that it's an anti racism thing with the wording of it.
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TapsC2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:10 pm
Googly wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:24 pm
TapsC2 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:03 pm
I definitely don't think quotas are the way to do it and it's not a problem that can be fixed overnight. It's about to reach a boiling point I think. They will not budge so they have put the pressure on QDK. Is he willing to sacrifice his international career over this? Will others walk away with him? I highly doubt it. A lot of lessons were learnt from the Zim walkout and I doubt we will ever see one like that again. I don't think the SA players are as united as the 04 zim crew.
I found it interesting that Pommie didn't sound too pleased as well. The most interesting thing is that QDK seems to have a lot of Indian sympathisers 😂
Was Pommie supportive of him or anti his stance?
What do you think needs to be fixed as a matter of interest?
Pommie basically said that if you don't take the knee then you not supporting your teammates of colour. Strong words.
To me you obliviously have to be biased somewhere but not quotas. I think the best way to achieve it is to invest big on maybe 5 schools which have black kids as the majority and put international standard facilities and qualified coaches. You can't afford to do it all over the country. In Zim's situation go to Prince Edward, Churchill and a couple of other schools and really invest in them. Send any promising underprivileged kid there. Get these schools competing with the already existing elite schools and after maybe 10 years you will naturally see black talent (especially batsmen) coming through.
Quotas don't solve the real issue. The real issue is that cricket like golf and tennis needs thousands of hours of practice which in the current environment in SA and Zim need lots of support from the parents. You need to create an environment where a naturally talented kid can get the thousands of hours of support needed. Black parents don't value sports and thats the truth.
It's not a coincidence for me that Myers went to an elite school. Wes was on a cricket scholarship in SA, Muyeye went from an elite school to a cricket scholarship in the UK. Marumani was on a scholarship at Falcon, an elite school.
Shumba was on a scholarship at Churchill I think which does not have ideal cricket facilities anymore but is still better than 99% of government school in that department. He might be the only exception. He did however play a lot of club cricket in the UK in 2019 before that World Cup.
The numbers for me show that the key is in building strong junior institutions which have a bias towards black kids. Not 100 institutions in random rural areas. Build just 5 institutions in schools which already have a culture of playing sports. It will cost a lot of money but after 10 years you will be producing a decent player or 2 every year who deserve to be in the national setup
A lot of stereotypes in this. How can you say black parents don't value sport. Also most schools in Zim that play any cricket, black or white, are elite (elite in zimbabwean terms). Age group teams are largely chosen from Churchill, PE, st Johns, Peterhouse, falcon, maybe Hellenic. Or at least they were for a long time. The good 'black' boys from other areas often went to chuchill or pe on scholarship or they went there for high school.
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Off topic but where are these 'white schools' people talk about in Zim? There are no white-majority schools. There's no white majority anything here! Thats the key difference why you can't compare Zim and SA on race issues.
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secretzimbo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:13 pm
Off topic but where are these 'white schools' people talk about in Zim? There are no white-majority schools. There's no white majority anything here! Thats the key difference why you can't compare Zim and SA on race issues.
This is true I guess. A lot has changed over the last 15 years.
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secretzimbo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:13 pm
Off topic but where are these 'white schools' people talk about in Zim? There are no white-majority schools. There's no white majority anything here! Thats the key difference why you can't compare Zim and SA on race issues.
Yes you are right, I hate using white and black, hence why I used 'white' and 'black'. Although Peterhouse, falcon, stJohns , Hellenic, chisipite have many white students.
Oh I forgot st George's, Dion Myers school, as a cricket school in my previous posts. There are also obviously junior schools as well
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Ya you're 100% correct, our most tense racial moments are long gone, and as you say that's largely because there are so few of us left that a) the whites that are left largely get along with our fellow countrymen because everyone has learned to relax a lot. b) most of us are just trying to get by and dont have the time or energy to waste time in no win situations and c) there are so few of us we are actually of no consequence, whereas in SA there's still so many whites they're front and centre in everything. The quick solution is to take what they've got and bring them down several notches. It doesn't work and there's ample proof of that but it is inevitable. Everyone suffers except for the 1%.
Is it just SA and WI doing the kneeling and black power salute or are there other teams, or is it when they play SA and WI? Is the kneeling an anti-racist gesture or is it also a gesture of support for BLM? I'm a bit confused.
The actual people who run BLM should all be in jail for many things, but particularly embezzlement, they're world champions, they've stolen tens of millions of donations.
Pommie is a world class brilliant and knowledgeable commentator and I love listening to him, but he did get his foot originally in the door because they were looking for a non white and he ticked every box and they were and are prepared to forget he's not South African. They're still so desperate they make us listen to Ntini. 😂 He does have to sing for his supper, so a strong comment like that guarantees his future. He forgets that black South Africans regularly kill black Zimbabweans that they perceive to have taken their jobs, but you won't hear him speaking out strongly about that. 😂 Why not have a game where everyone kneels for the 4000 white farmers butchered like animals in the last few years?
Same as a few of the players, they're not there by merit so are they kneeling for more favours or are they actually silently thanking their Gods that they're there because of blatant racism and willing it to continue.
Everyone seems to be forgetting that De Kock is not categorised as white. 😂 😂
Maybe we need a Coloured Lives Matter grovelling session?
I agree he should have just knelt and got on with it, this nonsense would blow over, but his actions are bringing it front and centre and its feigned indignation because he's giving it centre stage instead of slamming it into the rubbish bin where it belongs.
Is it just SA and WI doing the kneeling and black power salute or are there other teams, or is it when they play SA and WI? Is the kneeling an anti-racist gesture or is it also a gesture of support for BLM? I'm a bit confused.
The actual people who run BLM should all be in jail for many things, but particularly embezzlement, they're world champions, they've stolen tens of millions of donations.
Pommie is a world class brilliant and knowledgeable commentator and I love listening to him, but he did get his foot originally in the door because they were looking for a non white and he ticked every box and they were and are prepared to forget he's not South African. They're still so desperate they make us listen to Ntini. 😂 He does have to sing for his supper, so a strong comment like that guarantees his future. He forgets that black South Africans regularly kill black Zimbabweans that they perceive to have taken their jobs, but you won't hear him speaking out strongly about that. 😂 Why not have a game where everyone kneels for the 4000 white farmers butchered like animals in the last few years?
Same as a few of the players, they're not there by merit so are they kneeling for more favours or are they actually silently thanking their Gods that they're there because of blatant racism and willing it to continue.
Everyone seems to be forgetting that De Kock is not categorised as white. 😂 😂
Maybe we need a Coloured Lives Matter grovelling session?
I agree he should have just knelt and got on with it, this nonsense would blow over, but his actions are bringing it front and centre and its feigned indignation because he's giving it centre stage instead of slamming it into the rubbish bin where it belongs.
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If people did am ancestry test many would be surprised that they have ancestry of many places even if they look a certain way.
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Zimco wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:01 pm
secretzimbo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:13 pm
Off topic but where are these 'white schools' people talk about in Zim? There are no white-majority schools. There's no white majority anything here! Thats the key difference why you can't compare Zim and SA on race issues.
Yes you are right, I hate using white and black, hence why I used 'white' and 'black'. Although Peterhouse, falcon, stJohns , Hellenic, chisipite have many white students.
Oh I forgot st George's, Dion Myers school, as a cricket school in my previous posts. There are also obviously junior schools as well
Yeah, although the white populations in all of those schools are the minority and still declining.
That’s why race relations are relatively better here now. As Googly said, most whites just get their heads down and get on with things. And most blacks aren’t threatened by us anymore in any capacity as we are so few and powerless. Maybe it’s different in the white areas of Harare but certainly where I live we don’t encounter any problems or racism anymore really. We are a harmless curiosity. There’s also a sense of regret for some blacks in Zim. They still think wiping out whites from land and business was the ‘right’ thing to do in theory but they’ve seen how much of a disaster it was in practice. SA should take note of that....
In SA there are still white dominated things and places and institutions and businesses and that’s the issue for them. Cricket too - still white dominated. For all the quotas and targets and progress there’s only 2 black players in their XI atm and their director of cricket and half the board (I think) are white too. So of course it’s way more divisive and ‘current’ still. Whites in SA are still numerous and still determined to hold on to things. Blacks haven’t yet got what they apparently want.
Race issues are going to get much worse there , in cricket , but also wider society. SA needs to brace it selves. It’ll be way worse and messier than comparatively tiny Zim.
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Googly wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:04 pm
Is it just SA and WI doing the kneeling and black power salute or are there other teams, or is it when they play SA and WI? Is the kneeling an anti-racist gesture or is it also a gesture of support for BLM? I'm a bit confused.
The actual people who run BLM should all be in jail for many things, but particularly embezzlement, they're world champions, they've stolen tens of millions of donations.
Most teams are doing it. Scotland, England, Ireland all are. SA, WI. Even India! Which is ironic as that is probably the most racist country of all with their castes and stuff! I didn’t see the start of the Oz or NZ games but I’d guess they maybe are.
In the early round I saw PNG and Netherlands did too.
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secretzimbo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:24 pm
Googly wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:04 pm
Is it just SA and WI doing the kneeling and black power salute or are there other teams, or is it when they play SA and WI? Is the kneeling an anti-racist gesture or is it also a gesture of support for BLM? I'm a bit confused.
The actual people who run BLM should all be in jail for many things, but particularly embezzlement, they're world champions, they've stolen tens of millions of donations.
Most teams are doing it. Scotland, England, Ireland all are. SA, WI. Even India! Which is ironic as that is probably the most racist country of all with their castes and stuff! I didn’t see the start of the Oz or NZ games but I’d guess they maybe are.
In the early round I saw PNG and Netherlands did too.
I love blacks but if you tried to make me take a knee I’ll cut your head off.
What a Cuck move.
We have gone from fighting wars to knees.
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It's quite simple for me. Quinton has never taken a knee, whatever his reasons for it, he knows.
In this tournament, pretty much all teams have done so though, including the Australia and NZ teams (as someone mentioned they were not sure).
SA either took a knee, placed their fist up, stood to attention, or bowed their head. There was no cohesive stance and this caused a lot of angst amongst many. In a nation that likes to pride itself on it's diversity and differences, the image was a stark reminder of just how different everyone is, and the wide rifts that still exist.
Unfortunately in SA, the problem is cause by both sides. When Mandela took over, he said no man should ever be made to feel less. Quotas unfortunately do just that. They be little one group of people. On the other side, you have Indians and whites exploiting African people in poverty too. So the disparities are still prevalent and their is no cohesiveness within the nation, let alone within the cricket team.
So you can understand why people are upset, but you can also understand why animosity still exists. Unfortunately, these problems are systemic within Africa has a whole, and until that changes, we will continue to see these issues.
Unfortunately for QDK, he could be ruining a very successful cricketing career. In saying that, if he were to walk away from SA, there would be no shortage of teams willing to sign him up.
In this tournament, pretty much all teams have done so though, including the Australia and NZ teams (as someone mentioned they were not sure).
SA either took a knee, placed their fist up, stood to attention, or bowed their head. There was no cohesive stance and this caused a lot of angst amongst many. In a nation that likes to pride itself on it's diversity and differences, the image was a stark reminder of just how different everyone is, and the wide rifts that still exist.
Unfortunately in SA, the problem is cause by both sides. When Mandela took over, he said no man should ever be made to feel less. Quotas unfortunately do just that. They be little one group of people. On the other side, you have Indians and whites exploiting African people in poverty too. So the disparities are still prevalent and their is no cohesiveness within the nation, let alone within the cricket team.
So you can understand why people are upset, but you can also understand why animosity still exists. Unfortunately, these problems are systemic within Africa has a whole, and until that changes, we will continue to see these issues.
Unfortunately for QDK, he could be ruining a very successful cricketing career. In saying that, if he were to walk away from SA, there would be no shortage of teams willing to sign him up.
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