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Our Bowlers vs. Top 8 teams

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betterdays wrote:I always felt Mupawira was treated the same as Pommie ... they did very little wrong but for some reason because they couldn't generate the pace 'required' they were discarded - far too unceremoniously for my liking. Where Rainsford i always expected more from (it seems i may have judged him a little harshly from these numbers but while Mupawira made the most of his talents - i thought - Rainsford disappointed me).


Mupariwa at the pace that he was dropped was the fastest bowler to 50wickets! I think he took a confidence knock after being dropped for lack of pace! Even before that remember the whole dreadlock saga? He had to shave to stay in the team, Douglas hondo refused and ended up being the bowling coach. :o And I guess the injury set him back a couple. But here lies the real story 8-) Heath Streak was certainly not chuffed that his record was shattered by a 'trundler' like Mupariwa. Not content with that, Mupariwa also takes Streak out on Strike rate and Average. Mupariwa has the lowest Strike rate of all the Top 20 bowlers of all time in Zim and the Lowest average as well. So he set up a plan to search for the fastest bowler all around a country knowing full well that his main man was Jarvis. Jarvis would redeem him and put the record back to the speedsters where it belongs...
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer
In Streak's defence he was bowling against tougher opposition than Mupawira.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
ZCF Hall of Famer
I love this analysis however the gripe I have is it shouldn't be careerlong. Cap it for last 3 yrs or something.

Because mpofu Jarvis and cremer amongst others are different cats now to when they started
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer
Yeah, a valid point Dogg, I'd be interested in a more recent window alongside the career stats. But I just have to plead that it took me ages to fiddle with statsguru and my wife wanted me off the computer. I'd love for people to add to it if they care to.

Also because of the lack of fixtures, the short term numbers are often not big enough for meaningful stats to be churned out. Like in the batting, Waller had 8 innings against top 8 teams, his average is over 30 in those games, but it is a very small sample. Same with Jarvis and Shingi in the bowlers.
The Third Innings
Veteran
Good one Bayhaus :D ! I however doubt this theory (I must say you come up with the most compelling theories!). I would imagine Streak would have fed Mupariwa to the wolves at every opportunity (to mess up his figures) on the contrary he has been kept far away with his amazing figures in tact and atop the Zim rankings. I am more convinced by the dropping for pace (which I think is crazy on its own, I mean the older Pollock, Mcgrath, Stuart Clark, Munif Patel, Ifran Pathan, Philender and many others were not about pace, but swing and line and length and nagging accuracy), and also the confidence drop after injury and being discarded for doing nothing wrong (at least from the stats).

I'm glad you guys finally see what I have always seen as an anomaly. I've asked what happened many time with little answer.
ZCF Hall of Famer
lol at this theory streak wantsa to ruin bowlers.

if these bowlers all overtake streaks stats then streaks done his job!
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer
I have generally enjoyed the conspiracy theories of yours, but this one is difficult to comprehend. Actually, even before we get to details, the person whose record Mupariwa broke was Eddo Brandes's, for the quickest to 50 ODI wickets. It wasn't even Streak's record in the first place.

But yes, in any case even I do feel that Mupariwa was a little hard done by.
Veteran

Jemisi wrote:In limited overs matches, economy rate is a traditional means of rating bowlers, and for many statistical assessments, it takes priority over average. I thought you would have been pleased I'd highlighted Rainsford's good numbers.


Jemisi(and my dear friend eugene)I was already looking forward to you highlighting Rainsford(just wasn't sure who exactly between Mupariwa & Rainsford you actually meant), so his inclusion was a given!

What I was keen on observing was where you'd place Jarvis, and what you had to say about it. Sadly you didn't disappoint! While Shingi hasn't learnt to be economical(at international level yet), at least he does pick up wickets. Jarvis on the other hand has proven that he can do neither - at any level or format. We generally consider those bowlers useless!

Economy is the key measurement for T20s, however, wickets&averages remain the key stat for bowlers in ODIs as much as it is in Tests. Aus would've picked a 35 yr old Tait over a 30yr old Bracken any day, and more often than not if managing workload injuries wasn't a factor McKay/Copeland/Starc, will often sit out for Pattinson/Cummins and very soon even young Alister McDermott!

Zimdoggy, in my query focused on a ten year period. You will still find that even an 'ageing' Streak still comes out tops in terms of economy or average, even ahead of Mupariwa bayhaus.
Veteran

eugene wrote:In Streak's defence he was bowling against tougher opposition than Mupawira.


Yeah so streak didnt need to take it there! His main gripe was that it had to be a trundler. Thats why he's so maad (Said in the tone of the Mad Rapper) We could also argue that Streak had a better set up to train and prepare under...


CrimsonAvenger wrote:the person whose record Mupariwa broke was Eddo Brandes's, for the quickest to 50 ODI wickets. It wasn't even Streak's record in the first place


:oops: My bad! Some reason always thought it was Streak!


hhm wrote:Zimdoggy, in my query focused on a ten year period. You will still find that even an 'ageing' Streak still comes out tops in terms of economy or average, even ahead of Mupariwa bayhaus.

Quite right I just went to the default cricinfo bowling stats under Zimbabwe and thats the list that came up. with Mupariwa leading in Ave and SRso I don't know how that works.


FlowerPower wrote:I would imagine Streak would have fed Mupariwa to the wolves at every opportunity (to mess up his figures)


Streak is wiser than that, he knows Mupariwa would have ket going at that rate.

I was never a Mupariwa fan, in fact a friend of mine kept insisting that Mupariwa was the best bowler we had(at that time) and I didn't like it mainly because he was a trundler, but he won me over and by his sheer performance.
Veteran

ZIMDOGGY wrote:lol at this theory streak wantsa to ruin bowlers.

if these bowlers all overtake streaks stats then streaks done his job!


:) and if they don't - it's their fault ... nice to be Heath in that win win (especially as clearly so little is expected of our future bowlers) :roll: ... If i recall the call for pace was before streak's time anyway and i'm sure it was AC (which was my first issue with him).

Streak may have bowled against better quality for longer but a list of Mupariwa's ODI wickets has some big names on it ... Hayden, Lara, Jayawardene, Attapatu, Y Khan, M yusouf , ul-huq ... those are not baseball players!!
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer

hhm wrote:

Jemisi wrote:In limited overs matches, economy rate is a traditional means of rating bowlers, and for many statistical assessments, it takes priority over average. I thought you would have been pleased I'd highlighted Rainsford's good numbers.


Jemisi(and my dear friend eugene)I was already looking forward to you highlighting Rainsford(just wasn't sure who exactly between Mupariwa & Rainsford you actually meant), so his inclusion was a given!

What I was keen on observing was where you'd place Jarvis, and what you had to say about it. Sadly you didn't disappoint! While Shingi hasn't learnt to be economical(at international level yet), at least he does pick up wickets. Jarvis on the other hand has proven that he can do neither - at any level or format. We generally consider those bowlers useless!

Economy is the key measurement for T20s, however, wickets&averages remain the key stat for bowlers in ODIs as much as it is in Tests. Aus would've picked a 35 yr old Tait over a 30yr old Bracken any day, and more often than not if managing workload injuries wasn't a factor McKay/Copeland/Starc, will often sit out for Pattinson/Cummins and very soon even young Alister McDermott!


Well, Jarvis placed 8th out of nine and I didn't make up the numbers. So, are you dissapointed I didn't place him 10th out of 9? I said his numbers were ugly - did you want a character assasination?

If you want him judged by the number of wickets he takes though, he looks better. Since the test resumption, he has taken more wickets than any of our bowlers.
The Third Innings
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer
Hhm really has it in for Jarvis. Not sure if it is a long running family feud or what.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer
And I should add, if chances created stats were kept he'd be even further ahead. Our blokes have dropped a dozen or so catches off him since the test resumption.
The Third Innings
Veteran

eugene wrote:Hhm really has it in for Jarvis. Not sure if it is a long running family feud or what.

😂 😂 What boggles the mind is that we've had countless players who've genuinely lit up the scene when they first arrived, Panyangara, Mupariwa, Hondo etc. Now here comes a bowler who's been downright rubbish, with countless stats to back that up, yet it's as if he's oblivious to criticism! 16 ODIs later, he's arguably the worst new ball bowler to have donned our red colours for crying out loud! Even the bulk of our part-time medium pacers - past & present are ahead of him. Show any neutral his figures, particularly against the top 8, and I doubt you'd appreciate what comes out of their mouth!

You'd expect him to have taken more wickets Jemisi. He's played more games and taken the new ball more than any other seamer. Even with that advantage, he hasn't put sufficient daylight between himself and the rest to justify why he was given that privilege in the first place!

If you think about it closely, like myself, I doubt even you are ever disappointed by him. It's not like whenever he's got ball in hand I expect him to do anything with it, and he often doesn't! So if he does do well all good, if not ah well! I doubt any of you have any real confidence in him - be it as an Eagles fan or a Zim fan!

For years since the turn of this century, Zim has been a very poor fielding side, and this didn't start when Jarvis started playing. The likes of Elton, Hondo, Mupariwa & Mawhire etc could also claim that they would have more wickets(and hence stayed for longer in the national side) were it not for poor fielding. That his case is more recent in your memory doesn't make it any more relevant for him than the rest.
Veteran

hhm wrote:

eugene wrote:Hhm really has it in for Jarvis. Not sure if it is a long running family feud or what.

😂 😂 What boggles the mind is that we've had countless players who've genuinely lit up the scene when they first arrived, Panyangara, Mupariwa, Hondo etc.


You won't get much of an arguement from me re Jarvis but he was part of the team that won their readmission Test and it was a big boost for all us hoping in the wings ... his 4 wickets in the second innings (including the last two ... and therefore the 'winning' one - whatever the circumstances!!) leave a small corner in recesses of my heart open to him. BUT, i have a big heart :D and that little corner finds it harder to attract attention
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer
Jarvis isn't immune to criticism. Fielding has been terrible in the last year, and has reached a lower point not just because the memories are fresh. Because he has played so few games, even another 4 or 5 wickets, that he well earned would have made his numbers much more respectable.

At the moment he is going for too many runs - absolutely.

He is creating more chances than anyone else.

He does need to create more pressure early in the innings.

One thing I can say is this, he won't stay where he is. He is going to go forward, or back. And he has enough promise to suggest it will be forward.
The Third Innings
ZCF Hall of Famer
I agree with Jemisi and hhm when they say Jarvis is one of the most promising young cricketers in the country and if it weren't for Zim's poor fielding would have quite a few more wickets to his name.

The most pleasing thing about Jarvis, and especially Vitori, is the variation they have. While Meth swings it more than most he's not quick enough to be really damaging against high quality opposition. That Jarvis is able to get some considerable swing at 135+ makes him a potent threat with the new ball, and seeing Vitori getting reverse swing at the same pace was very exciting.

They are by no means finished products yet though. Vitori needs to reduce the number of wides he bowls (when he bowls straight and swings it he looks very, very good) and he needs to improve his stamina. I was very happy to see him exceed 140 in the recent tournament, but in the Test arena he can't just be bowling 135+ in his opening spell. Jarvis bowls a few no balls I've noticed and also has a tendency to be a bit short.
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