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What has been proven

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ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer

Opening post


hhm wrote:


eugene wrote:Those stats may sound impressive (an average of 27 is very good for Matsi), but between 2006/10 most of our games were against Kenya and Bangladesh. Take them out and his average drops to 17.57.

Why take them out? In the World's eyes were we considered superior to them and did the results on the ground reflect that? How can you want to discount our boys' performances against men? To satisfy your ill thoughts?


Well, somebody wanted to take NZ performances out of Taylor and Waller's stats...
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer

CrimsonAvenger wrote:

hhm wrote:


eugene wrote:Those stats may sound impressive (an average of 27 is very good for Matsi), but between 2006/10 most of our games were against Kenya and Bangladesh. Take them out and his average drops to 17.57.

Why take them out? In the World's eyes were we considered superior to them and did the results on the ground reflect that? How can you want to discount our boys' performances against men? To satisfy your ill thoughts?


Well, somebody wanted to take NZ performances out of Taylor and Waller's stats...


I think he wants to eliminate Taylor and Waller altogether. He is probably hacking cricinfo's statsguru as we speak.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani
ZCF Hall of Famer

CrimsonAvenger wrote:

hhm wrote:


eugene wrote:Those stats may sound impressive (an average of 27 is very good for Matsi), but between 2006/10 most of our games were against Kenya and Bangladesh. Take them out and his average drops to 17.57.

Why take them out? In the World's eyes were we considered superior to them and did the results on the ground reflect that? How can you want to discount our boys' performances against men? To satisfy your ill thoughts?


Well, somebody wanted to take NZ performances out of Taylor and Waller's stats...


Yeah, but hopefully it means now hhm has seen the error of his ways and will now only use undoctored statistics.
Veteran

brmtaylor.com admin wrote:

CrimsonAvenger wrote:Well, somebody wanted to take NZ performances out of Taylor and Waller's stats...

Yeah, but hopefully it means now hhm has seen the error of his ways and will now only use undoctored statistics.


Error of what ways? Perhaps your own in your grossly selective and short memory! I don't tell half stories or doctor anything.

I've given Matsi stats including just the top 8 before and some still said they were doctored! In the Taylor example I told both sides of the story including and excluding NZ, to prove a specific point(of which the WI tour actually adds weight to that argument until the next series).

This particular response in this thread was given to the guys critical of Matsi's career average (against every single team throughout his career span), so I responded based on the breakdown of Matsi's career average, duly pointing out that he struggled as would've been expected initially, but relatively flourished after that, so the context of his average should be acknowledged as you would Hami&Vusi! If they had questioned based the top 8, then none of our batsmen does better than the low 20s I think, so the it would've been a useless argument anyway.

Even if you compare him to his peers you can still see evidence of that despite the fact that he occupied every position from 1-8. Matsi had played more games more than the others in those fluctuating conditions. Only Taibu had played a few more than him, with Elton a little bit behind.

You won't find Vusi, Hami & Taylor batting from 7/8 in the final overs chasing the game at any point in time. That's what Matsi had to do, and his average and strike rate in comparison to Elton shows how well he tried to cope against top attacks. Add this inconvenience to those early years and games spent languishing in unsuitable positions, and half his career is negatively affected before he walked onto the pitch to bat.

Any right minded, neutral Cricinfo analyst breaking down Matsi's career would arrive at the same conclusion that I draw. If they had the bonus of actually watching him throughout his career they would struggle to point out which one of our current batsmen is really as talented and as good a batsmen he is. Seeing Chamu, Regis, Mawoyo, Waller etc, would naturally raise questions why does Zimbabwe reduce itself to such, when the class of Matsi is back home? The same applies for Elton. Price, Cremer, Rainsford etc, can and have been replaced. Those two, never!

If anything, it's in your desperation having seen how well he performed, that you went on to focus exclusively on the top 8. I don't mind that but first acknowledge my stats that Matsi did in fact do well and we can see a clear upward transition in his ODI career, then you can go on to point out what you want.

I can understand some of you hate him without cause. As one of the finest talents a young shining beacons, Matsi took up spots for some of your rebel favourites under a necessary transformation agenda. His predictable failure initially, and prolonged exposure, doesn't mean he was/is a bad player. James Taylor struggled for England and was dropped, some other young replacements after him didn't do well enough but now young Root seems to be ok. The difference is Matsi had to be persisted with.

I look forward to his return to the team, you don't. ;)
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer
If Matsi had some significant runs behind him and he was in form that could hope against hope produce an average from this point forward in the 30s, I would love to have him back. The point is that you are believing this will be the case and the stats don't support the likelihood of that outcome. The wishful thinking is yours, though you accuse the rest of us (Zim fanatic excluded obviously) of it.

Love Matsi, pray for Matsi, support Matsi, enjoy Matsi, just give the idea that numbers support a prediction that he will perform in the 30s or better at international level a rest. You may predict it on the basis of intuition or a gut feeling or prophetic gifting or whatever, just realise that everyone else can read numbers and unlike the tea leaves they predict that Matsi won't succeed. If you turn out right and Matsi blossoms in a new stage of his career, it will be in spite of his terribly mediocre stats up to this point, rather than a confirmation of them.
The Third Innings
ZCF OriginalZCF Hall of Famer

Jemisi wrote:If Matsi had some significant runs behind him and he was in form that could hope against hope produce an average from this point forward in the 30s, I would love to have him back. The point is that you are believing this will be the case and the stats don't support the likelihood of that outcome. The wishful thinking is yours, though you accuse the rest of us (Zim fanatic excluded obviously) of it.

Love Matsi, pray for Matsi, support Matsi, enjoy Matsi, just give the idea that numbers support a prediction that he will perform in the 30s or better at international level a rest. You may predict it on the basis of intuition or a gut feeling or prophetic gifting or whatever, just realise that everyone else can read numbers and unlike the tea leaves they predict that Matsi won't succeed. If you turn out right and Matsi blossoms in a new stage of his career, it will be in spite of his terribly mediocre stats up to this point, rather than a confirmation of them.


Exactly.

Some interesting break downs of Matsi's career. From 2002-2007 in ODIs he averages 21.19, from 2008-2013 he averages 23.51 (with a high number of matches against Kenya and Bangladesh). So hhm you are correct that his average has been higher in the second half of his career, but the difference is marginal and it is not like he has ever become more consistent. There is no statistical evidence to back up your pro-Matsi arguments. I have no problem with you liking Matsi, but your claims of statistics supporting your arguments are outrageous.

Coincidentally, Craig Ervine averages over 30 (33.50) against the top 8, infact his average against the top 8 is higher than his career average. And Malcolm Waller averages over 30 against the three top 8 nations he has played against (Pakistan, NZ, WI). Admittedly with Waller the sample size is still small.
My All-time Zimbabwe XI
Neil Johnson, Brendan Taylor, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), David Houghton, Sean Williams, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Paul Strang, Eddo Brandes, Blessing Muzarabani

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